About six months ago, we asked listeners to email in their pressing questions. Of course we responded to each question in real-time, but we also saved the best questions to answer on the air. So in this very special solo podcast episode, Dolph answers the following questions that are as old as the nonprofit sector itself:
- When has a board officer crossed the line?
- What books and podcasts will help with your own professional development?
- What’s the best way to thank board members who resign?
Referenced Book Suggestions
- The CEO Next Door
- Discipline Without Punishment
- Radical Candor
- The Thief in Your Company:
- Better Together: How Top Nonprofit CEOs and Board Chairs Get Happy, Fall in Love, and Change Their World
- Better Together: Companion Workbook
* Transparency Moment: Amazon will pay a small referral fee if you buy a product via one of these links.
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases
Referenced Podcast Suggestions
Radical Candor Podcast: https://www.radicalcandor.com/candor-podcast/
HBR Idea Cast: https://hbr.org/2018/01/podcast-ideacast
View From the Top: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/view-top-podcast
Entrepreneurial Thought Leadership: https://ecorner.stanford.edu/podcasts/taking-a-lead-from-tech/etl_podcast_thumbnail/
(2:30) What to do as a board chair if your chief executive and staff are at odds with each other.
(9:05) Book recommendations to help a new executive director being fairly challenged in their fresh role
(19:30) Podcast recommendations for a budding executive director.
(23:15) Making investments that can go far to help a new director.
(26:05) How to properly thank outgoing board members.
(36:25) Have more questions? Send them right to Dolph!
Episode 135 Transcript:
Dolph Goldenburg: (00:01)
Welcome to the successful nonprofits podcast. I’m your host Dolph Goldenberg, and today is the first of a very special type of podcast episode. About maybe six months or so ago, I asked listeners to send in questions and I promise that I would answer them. And so I’ll share with you that I’ve gotten a lot of great questions from listeners. I’ve responded to each listener, um, individually as well. But I’ve curated a few questions to answer on this episode. Now, before we jump into the questions, let me just make sure that, you know, I’ve anonymized locations, genders, types of organizations, names, et cetera. Clearly no one wants to hear this, hear their question, come out and be like, Oh wow, well, I’m identifiable. And so in some cases I’ve even combined questions, which again, just allowed me to sort of further anonymize it. I really hope that you enjoyed this episode. I’ve probably spent about two or three times more time on this episode than on most because it really kind of required that I read the question that I think about it. I looked at my original response to um, the individual and then tried, of course, to make sure that we anonymized it. So let’s jump right into the very first question and this question is from a board chair.
Did I cross the line as a board chair? (first question) (01:30)
Dear Dolph, a senior staff member called me yesterday with some frustrations they’re having with the chief executive and they felt like there was just no one else to speak with. So after the call I talked with another staff member about those frustrations and that person reported the senior staff member and the chief executive. I’ve been arguing a great deal lately. Now the senior executive that called me to kind of share frustrations and complain feels that the staff is unheard when they expressed their concerns to the chief executive. And last night we had a board meeting and I shared a couple of these concerns with our executive director. Now tomorrow I’m supposed to be meeting another staff member for drinks after work because this person, the person I’m going to meet for drinks seems like a neutral and
Should I try to mediate between the chief executive in the staff or should I be the referee listening to everyone and then making a decision without input from the full board? Oh yeah. Um, I should also mention that I think staff are feeling unheard about. Issues that really aren’t that big of a deal. Things like how supplies are ordered and decisions about our, the layout of our new office. Any help you could provide would be great. [inaudible] thanks so much. Signed Richard, the referee in Rochester. So Richard, here’s the short answer. You have already way overstepped the board chair Chief Executive Bounds. Your chief executive is the boss at your organization and staff should really only approach the board about issues if they are, have a legal or an ethical nature. Now the reason that this line is so important is that a board chair or a committee that steps in and tries to mediate a situation and or override your executive director typically also undermines that chief executive.
It sets up this weird dynamic where staff members feel comfortable going to the board whenever they aren’t happy with the decision and you know, let’s face it, we all have things that we think our is wrong about, but ultimately we say, okay, the person’s our boss and we’re going to follow along because those are the rules. Now, the best case scenario when you overstep your bounds, Richard, as a board chair, is that it puts your chief executive in a nearly impossible position. First of all, they will have to second guess every one of their decisions for fear that upsetting some faction or fraction of the staff will result in them coming to the board. And second, if they ever do need to discipline an employee who spoke with you or another board member about their frustration, you had better believe that at that employee will claim retaliation.
Now, the third thing that you’ve done by having these conversations with the staff, Richard, is you’ve also undoubtedly breached the trust that you have developed with the chief executive. I don’t know how long you’ve been board chair, but probably over the last several months or years through your relationship you have been building trust. But once you’ve breached that trust, it’s much harder for the two of you to have a productive relationship. So I just shared with you that that is the best case scenario. But guess what? The worst-case scenario is? The worst case is that it makes your organization ungovernable by this or any other executive director. So the executive director can certainly try to be more consensus oriented in how they manage. But if they start managing the organization by consensus, which sounds really great at first, you have to realize that it might take 10 years to achieve consensus on the arrangement of those new offices or what color binder clips the office should order.
So again, to me the worst case scenario is you now have an organization where every single decision that chief executive makes gets questioned and the chief executive can not move forward, lets more. If this person leaves and someone else comes in, that’s what they’re going to be walking into. Now. Additionally you had better believe Richard, that this will not be the last time staff come to you with a concern about an executive director. Once you open the door, the door is wide open and as I’ve already said, we all disagree with our bosses sometimes and if we know that our concerns will be refereed by someone else, guess what? We’re going to take that option. We’re going to try to make it painful for our boss to disagree with us. Now having said all of this, there is one time when it is okay for the board to solicit feedback about the executive director and that one time is during the annual performance review.
The board can use that review as an opportunity to identify ways the executive director can improve as a supervisor and let’s face it, we can all improve in our jobs and that includes your executive director. Now having said that, I would not recommend that you started an evaluation process right now because let’s face it, recency bias will likely weight some staff opinion toward their most recent feelings. So please Richard, do yourself, do your chief executive and do your organization a huge solid, cancel that date for drinks with the staff member that you are planning to meet with tomorrow. And let any staff member that you’ve already spoken with know that you inadvertently overstepped your mounds, explained that they should address their operational, interpersonal issues directly with the executive director and that you can only entertain complaints of a legal or ethical nature. And be really clear that feeling unheard while probably bad management is not an ethical complaint.
Although let me say, you don’t want to tell the staff member feeling unheard is probably bad management, but you do need to be clear that feeling unheard is not an ethical complaint. Then start rebuilding trust with your chief executive, apologized to them. Let them know that you acted in good faith, but you made a mistake and you won’t repeat it. Now I also understand that accepting your actions are a personal foul is going to be difficult and it may be your only hope for saving your relationship with the chief executive and the organization. So I hope that information is helpful. Um, of course, always feel free to reach out to me. Happy to answer more questions.
What books and podcasts do you recommend for a young nonprofit executive director? (second question) (08:26)
So this next question comes from an executive director. Starts off, Hey Dolph, I’m in my late twenties and a new executive director of a small Greyhound rescue nonprofit. I was the development coordinator at a national animal welfare organization and thought I was ready for this position. But after less than a year, I’m starting to wonder if I have what it takes to actually do this job. I often feel I’m drowning in HR, finance and board problems and it leaves me little time to actually raise money or manage our small staff and volunteer base. So what books can you recommend that might help me out? This one is signed drowning in Denver. So let me first start drowning in Denver by sharing with you that no one who becomes a first time executive director is actually prepared to be one. Most people become an executive director through one of three channels.
Through they rise up through programs, they rise up through fundraising or they rise up through finance and operations. Now here’s the deal though. Then when you become chief executive, you know that one area really well, you might be like, you are really great at fundraising, but then you have to learn operations and you also have to learn finance and you’ve got to learn programs. What’s more in addition to learning those, you also have to learn some of the things that only executive directors face, like how do you report to a board of 12 people? How do you manage the board? How do you manage those external affairs in ways that only you can do because you’re the chief executive, so I’ll share it with you. I do a lot of chief executive coaching and what you’re feeling right now is perfectly and completely normal. In my experience, most eds face this in their first 18 months and frankly it’s a crisis of confidence. I think one of the reasons that most new edis face this is typically what happens on a brand new eds first day is you know, the board chair or one of the co-chairs or whatever meet you at the organization, drop some keys in your hand, maybe introduces you to staff if you’ve not already been introduces, if you’re not already been introduced. And then you say,
and then they say to the new executive director, Hey, good luck. Hope this all works out for you. Give me a call if you need me. That’s not a great way to start off, but honestly it’s the way the vast majority of chief executives, first time or fifth time end up starting off. So there are some books that I gift to a lot of brand new first time chief executives and I think these books are going to be really helpful for you and some of the struggles that you’re facing. And so the first one that I gift, and I gift this almost every single time I know someone is going to be a very first time chief executive is the CEO next door by Elena Botelho. And Kim Powell. This is such an incredible book, so they really in the first part of the book, describe what it takes to become a chief executive.
Things like taking on unique and interesting projects doing that no one else really wants to do and sometimes even making some lateral moves in your journey so that you can start to get some of those other experiences. For example, in finance operations and programs before you meet, move into the chief executive role. But in someone like your case, this book is going to be most helpful in its second half because the second half describes the traits and skills that are necessary to succeed once you are in the role as a chief executive. So let me just say to you, this book is going to be super helpful. Definitely read the first half cause it’ll help you go, oh now I get it. Now I understand some of the other experiences. Maybe I need to try to get an addition or outside of being an executive director, but then also the second half going to be phenomenally important.
So the second book that I probably gift the most, and this one I think will help you with some of the HR issues that you’re facing, is disciplined without punishment by Dick grow. Now, whenever I give this book, I always say to folks, Hey, dick is kind of old school. There’s probably about 20 or 25% of the book that I just, whenever I read it, I think, wow, this book was written a long time ago. I do not think I could stand behind what it’s saying. But about 75% of the book is still solid gold. It offers a system for managing all of your team members that will quickly resolve any issues. So let me also say that Dick groat does not ascribe to the traditional three write-ups and your terminated process. It is much more a process of setting clear guidelines and expectations about how their relationship is going to work.
What type of performance is expected of each position and then managing to those expectations and really giving your team members the sense of agency, the sense of power to decide whether or not the position that they’re in is the right position for them. Again, this is my, probably my second most gifted book. CanNot, cannot recommend it enough. Now also as you are starting to to figure out how to manage some of these HR issues, I would recommend that you read the book radical candor by Kim Scott. Oh my gosh, this book is a game changer. It literally kind of like discipline without punishment helped to transform the way I manage people. Kim talks about being compassionately candid with your team members and your direct reports. And so when I say your team members, um, for those that are not yet executive directors, that means like your colleagues.
So it’s not just your subordinates, it’s your colleagues, it’s the people above you. But really being compassionately candid. And this book also really focuses on how through radical candor you can collaboratively work with team members to really have a new level of success. Now, let me share with you that the new edition is coming out in October. So hold off and buy the new version that’s coming in October. I’ve already pre-ordered it. It is well worth the money and I strongly, strongly suggest that you check it out. Now there’s also a podcast and I’m actually about to give you some bonus ideas on podcasts as well. But the, the big thing on radical candor, and I just gotta say this is um, it really talks about the importance of being just fully forthright and truthful with your direct reports and with your colleagues. And it gives you not just the benefit of doing so, but it gives you some great tools, techniques, and tips for doing it.
So another book that I often give, and typically I give this book to a chief executive, um, who maybe did not come up through finance and operations. And this book is by Tiffany couch. We’ve had her on the show. Um, and it’s a, it’s entitled the thief in Your Company. So Tiffany is a forensic accountant. You would think that this book would be dry and boring, but it reads like true, like a true crime novel. So each chapter is a different real life story of waste and fraud that she uncovered as a forensic accountant. And so it’s almost like a who done it. You, you know, she describes, she lands into a city, sorry, she lands in a plane into the city. Um, she describes what the organization does, um, what some of the issues were and then she page by page uncovers for you how she discovered the embezzlement, the fraud, the waste, et cetera.
And then in the last page of the chapter, after you’ve been thoroughly hooked in this chapter of mystery, she explains the internal controls that you could have as an organization. They would prevent that type of fraud or abuse. It’s a phenomenal book. Definitely recommend you get it. Um, I only discovered this book in the last year, but I’ve already probably gifted at 15 or 16 times. So I think probably, um, the last book that I would recommend for you drowning in Denver is a book by John Full Weider. Full disclosure also was a guest on the podcast. Um, and that book is called better together. And I would also recommend the companion workbook, which is how top nonprofit CEOs and board chairs get happy, fall in love and change the world. Now I will share with you that Eric Full Weider and I are in full alignment that the board chair and executive director relationship is among the most important for the longterm success of your organization.
And so he takes that approach but then says, why don’t you think about some of the key issues that are probably going to arise in your relationship with each other? Those might be what are we going to do if there’s a financial crisis, what are we going to do if there’s an HR problem, how are we going to handle a fundraising event that goes, Kaboom and just does not work out the way we wanted it to work out? And so through this process he walks you through question by question and maybe in each of your regular meetings with your board chair and drowning and gender of Denver. If you do not already have regular meetings, I recommend that you schedule them, but you take maybe 10 or 20 minutes in each of your regular meetings and you explore one of these questions. So definitely pick up a copy of better together by Eric full, wider.
Now I want to offer you some additional resources as well. I already know you’re a podcast listener, but guys, well you responded to my question. Hey, what would you like? You know, what are you struggling with as a, as a, as a person or as an organization? And how can I answer your question? So now that I know you’re a podcast listener, I’d like to recommend the following podcasts. Now let me also just start by saying that most of these podcasts are focused on the for-profit sector, but they also apply in the nonprofit world. It’s one of the things that I actually tried to do with this podcast, the successful nonprofits podcast is we often have on people who really have, have made their mark in the for-profit world, but at can share something that’s important about leadership or financial controls or you know, strategic planning and goal achievement that’s really important to the nonprofit sector.
So the first podcast I recommend is radical candor. I already recommended Kim Scott’s book and this podcast is a great way to read the book and reinforce it. So definitely check out radical candor. I’ve already talked about it. Won’t say more. So the next is HBR idea cast and HBR of course as Harvard Business Review it is the publication that’s put out, um, through the business school and they have this idea cast. It’s essentially weekly interviews with interesting leaders. Um, sometimes they’re applicable to the work you’re doing. Sometimes they’re not. Probably like most podcasts, you’re gonna download some episodes and not download others. So the one that I would recommend you start out with is that you check out our recent episode called the challenges and triumphs of a young manager. And it’s actually, um, with the, someone who became a young manager at Facebook, um, very early on and she talks about what she learned, um, very early in her manager’s experience.
So make sure that you download that episode. It’s a great one to start with. Another podcast would recommend is by this Stanford business school called a view from the top. And so this particular podcast features prominent leaders from around the world and they join some MBA students for a conversation typically on things like leadership values, lessons that they have learned throughout their career. It’s the type of thing that will really enhance you as a leader and as a manager. Now, once again, I’m going to recommend one episode that you kind of get started with. And so give a listen to this episode from last fall that’s fall 2018 with Jeffrey Katzenberg and it’s entitled, be original, be unique, be risky. I have a feeling that that particular episode might speak to you. And then the last podcast that I’m going to recommend is Stanford’s entrepreneurial thought leadership.
So that’s right, two podcast by Stanford. But this one is the entrepreneurial thought leadership and in this podcast, leaders share their personal stories of both success and setback. Now again, it’s inspirational. It will also give you really good ideas for ways that you can be a stronger, more effective chief executive. I would definitely suggest that you download an episode from April, 2018 and that episode is the courage to take positive risks with Jew Lane Virgil. Phenomenal episode. I think you will really enjoy it. Now in the show notes, we are going to post links to all of these books and podcasts, so as I always say, if you’re not able to write it down, just go to the show notes, a successful nonprofits.com and you can easily find these books and these podcasts now drowning in Denver. I want to leave you with just a few more thoughts.
Well, books and podcasts may provide you some support. You should find some additional support as well. The first thing is I would encourage you to consider getting a good career coach, a former executive director who has had successes and setbacks of their own and can guide you as you become a more successful chief executive and also help you work through some of those setbacks. Now I always say that a career coaches and an investment in yourself, but you should definitely ask your organization to pick up the cost. Every organization has a vested interest in the success of their team members and that includes the success of their chief executive. So the next time you have that regular meeting with your board chair, be honest. Say, hey, here’s some things I’m struggling with and I think some coaching would help. Now the second way that I would like for you to consider finding support is find some pure support and that’s best I believe when it’s in peer support.
So maybe think about our regional or national association that has conferences that you can attend and attend that first conference. Meet lots of people who have already gone through their first few years as a chief executive in your industry. And then when you’re having issues, you can reach out to them. Now if a national association or regional association is just not in the cards for you, also check out your local nonprofit resource center. You’re in a big city, I promise you Denver has something and it’s a great way for you to get some in-person support. So drowning in Denver. I hope this has been helpful. Um, I just really have to encourage you to please stick with it. Those first 18 months are the hardest. Every single chief executive faces a crisis of confidence typically at some point in their first 18 months. Um, I actually wrote a blog post about it.
How do I acknowledge departing board members? (third question) (24:44)
We will include that blog post on our show notes is probably from four or five years ago now, but we will include that blog post in show notes as well. So we typically try to keep this, um, podcast down to about 30 to 35 minutes. We’ve got, gosh, about four or five questions, but I’m apparently being kind of wordy in my responses. So we probably only have time for one more.
So here goes, hey Dolph, I’ve been on the board of a local behavioral health counseling agency for the past two years and I will start a two-year term as board chair. This October, my first official duty as board chair will be to thank our outgoing board members who are stepping down at the end of the year because of term limits or resignation. So I asked the outgoing board president what she does to acknowledge those who are leaving the board.
And the answer pretty much that I was given is not much. There’s typically a thanks for your service agenda item and then a round of applause at their last board meeting. While our board only meets quarterly, all board members serve on a committee that meets an additional four to six times a year and we’re all expected to fundraise at least $1,000 every year. So based on what we’re expecting of our board members, it just does not feel to me like a round of applause is enough. How do other nonprofits recognize outgoing board members? And this one is signed Theo the thankful. So Theo, the sad truth is that most nonprofits don’t really do that much to thank our outgoing board members. So your organization is not alone in that, and you, by the way, are not alone in wanting to do more. Believe it or not, the number one Google search that gets people to land on my blog is this.
How do you think outgoing board members and the reason is, oh, maybe about three years or so ago, I wrote a blog with a sample letter to outgoing board members and as I said, literally it is the number one Google search over strategic planning, over coaching, overboard development over everything else. It seems that everyone seems to be facing the same issue, so at a minimum, Theo, you should send a personal thank you letter. Let me repeat, it must be personal. This is not a form letter. You can’t send the same letter to all three outgoing board members. Again, I did put a sample letter on my blog, but, and we’ll link to that in the show notes. But what I would encourage you to do is really identify some ways that that, that each outgoing board member has made significant contributions. And you may need to talk to your aqualung board chair around this.
You might need to talk to the executive director or the development director. But for example, if somebody for example chaired the fundraising committee and the year that they chaired that committee, it was the best fundraising year for the organization. Put that as a paragraph in the letter. Make them feel good. If somebody had the highest attendance average and always clearly had done their pre meeting, reading and homework. Say that in the letter there’s needs to be a personal letter because let’s face it, when you have a departing board member, one of two things happens most often the board member leaves and the organization almost never hears from them again. They stop attending events, they stop giving, et cetera. So what you are now doing is you are transitioning to a relationship where you want this person to stay involved. So the better they feel as they’re leaving, the more likely they are to stay involved.
I also think at a minimum you need a farewell celebration at the board meeting itself. Now you’ve already said there is an agenda item and you do a round of applause. Well, that’s great. Here are a couple of other things you can do that are very low or even no cost. The first is have some cake and bubbly. If you’re the kind of organization maybe that does not really drink after board meetings, that’s all right. You can have sparkling cider or sparkling apple juice, but have some cake and bubbly. Make it, make it a special occasion. Make sure that it’s memorable, but then also both before the meeting and maybe even as part of the thank you item on the agenda, have a slideshow of photos that show your outgoing board members being great board members. Maybe that’s them at events them at board retreats.
You know, you know those outgoing board members within board meetings, you probably have at least four or five pictures of each of them assuming they’ve been on the board for two, four, six years. So use those photos, make a slide, make them feel good. Now this is also a good time. If you want to spend a little bit more money to give them a token to help them remember the organization. And also, let me say to thank them. Now the thing that most nonprofits will do if they do anything over just a quick thank you, is they give a plaque. And if I could stop that one, practice what we as consultants, awful often call plaquing and whacking, I certainly would. So please don’t give a plaque our certificate or a traditional trophy like an award. Most people who serve on boards are relatively modest people.
They’re not going to put those on their office wall or on their wall at home. Well, it’s more, it’s also very 1950s, 1960s 1970s the day of the plaque is over and you should let it be over. So instead, think about these items, you and, or maybe some staff members could put together a scrapbook for each of the outgoing board members. So you know, you found those photos for the slideshow. Now put those photos in a scrapbook, maybe with some other memorabilia, whether for example, if it’s um, I don’t know, your outgoing board chair and there’s a letter from them in the annual report, then put that in the scrapbook, put ticket stubs in the scrapbook, other things that they’ve done. So again, Ephemera from their time on the board scrapbook, it takes a lot more work. It does not cost that much money and it’s a great way to say thank you.
Now if you have more money as an organization than time, here’s some items that will cost about $250 and be memorable and kept the first maybe is a nice watch. So not a cheap lodge, you know, a nice 250 $300 a watch and on the back and grave, something like thanks for your time and talent. Now when I was at living room, we actually used to give a nice watch and the face of the watch was a beautiful blue about the same shade as the blue of our logo and we’d engrave just that on the back. Thanks for your time and talent. One Time I actually received a handwritten thank you note from the outgoing board member who said, I’m a partner at a major firm, but this is still the first really nice watch I’ve ever had. And I’ve shown her to everyone at the office and told them what an amazing experience it was to be on the board of your organization.
That’s the kind of item you want to give. Another idea is a nice engraved pen. Again, a good pen might set you back anywhere from 250 to maybe $500, but there’s often ways that you can engrave pens and again, something really nice like you know, thanks for your talent or um, you’re always written into the history of our organization. Just really simple things that you can engrave that will help them remember you and don’t forget so nice that they want to show it off to others. Now if $250 is out of your budget, then maybe think about, um, in the a hundred dollar range there’s some beautiful decorative vases or bowls that you can have in engraved. When I was the, um, co-chair of the board of Centerlink, the, when, when my co-chair ship ended, the organization gave me a beautiful bowl that was engraved with my name as well as my dates of service as board co-chair.
That bowl has gone with me from Philadelphia to Atlanta. I liked it so much. I literally brought it across the country in our living room. Today we use it, it’s a great place to put things like remotes and things like that, but it also means that whenever frank and I are having dinner parties, people come over and they see that bowl and they go, oh wow, tell me about this bowl. Another idea is an engraved frame with a photo of them doing something big at the organization. Maybe it’s them at a podium, at an event or them cutting a ribbon and you know, again, you engrave some something nice on the frame along with the name of the organization and their dates of service. So I hope those are some good ideas for you, Theo, as you’re looking to acknowledge these outgoing board members. But while we’re on the topic of going online to get some beautiful engraved items, I want to suggest one more way.
You can spend money that will enhance your organization’s a spree decor. So every year your organization should purchase a branded item and give it to every board and staff member. So think about it, it’s kind of like a, hey, thanks for serving this year. Whether you’re serving as a paid staff member, as a or as a volunteer, thanks for serving. We want to give you something that’s kind of cool. It should not be Chincy like a 25 cent pen. Imagine instead branded portfolios, so nice portfolios with your logo on them, or messenger bags with your logo, golf shirts, business card cases, umbrellas, tailgating, chairs. There are lots of options and things that can be genuine to your organization, but it’s a great way to acknowledge another year of service and what’s more, it means that once people have been in your organization for four or five or six years, they will have four or five or six really cool branded items. So Theo, I hope not bonus idea sits well with you and I hope it’s maybe something that you think about implementing.
Well dear listeners, as I said, we typically try to keep this to about 30 35 minutes and I’m pushing 35 minutes right now so we’re not going to have time to get the additional questions. We’ll find in the coming months a time to do another mailbag ask Dolph type of an episode. So don’t worry, I promise you we will get to the remaining questions. So I’m so grateful that you downloaded this episode and that you listened to it. If you really enjoyed the episode, do me a favor, subscribe rate, review it on iTunes podcast or, or whatever your streaming app of choice is. Additionally, let me ask, if you’ve got a question, please send it to me. I always respond to every question that I get all this. Sometimes it takes me a few days. I always respond to every question that I get, and as you can see, I promise that I can find a way to anonymize them. And two, if they’re really, really great questions or, or I guess really a question that I get frequently, make sure that we put it on the air as well. So thank you so much for listening. I hope you have gained some insight to help your nonprofit thrive in a competitive environment.