Mazarine Treyz of Wild Woman Fundraising joins Dolph for a session of career coaching. They share a lot of Amen! moments as they discuss strategies on everything from negotiating a great salary to making the world a better place for all of us.

*****Timestamped Highlights*****

(3:43) Stand out: Incorporate their cause with your personal story
(6:42) The game of reveal and conceal in your resume
(7:48) Navigating interview questions – tackling the expected and unexpected
(9:33) Tips for approaching (and deflecting) the salary question
(11:50) Mazarine shares resume writing tips
(13:14) Blind screening resumes – to help see the whole
(15:23) Start with your board
(17:59) Shareholder value is bullsh*t

(18:56) Staff love > donor love
(20:15) The effects of “intern pay” – the mindset of undercompensation
(23:51) Use your A.R.M.S. – and no, not not your limbs
(26:58) What to consider when negotiating your salary
(30:13) Hedonic treadmill – more, more, MORE!
(32:58) Setting time aside to do what you love
(36:25) Dolph is a five of diamonds

Links:

Mazarine’s Book: Get the Job: Your Fundraising Career Empowerment Guide
Wild Social Media:
Wild Woman Fundraising: www.wildwomanfundraising.com
Mazarine’s  Art: http://encausticarts.net/
Mazarine Treyz: www.mazarinetreyz.com
Read the Transcript for Episode 120 Below or Click Here!

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Transcript – Episode 120 – Be a Standout Candidate, Nail Negotiations and MORE! – Career Advice from Mazarine Treyz, CEO of Wild Woman Fundraising

Dolph Goldenburg: Welcome to the Successful Nonprofits™ Podcast. I’m your host Dolph Goldenburg, and you should strap on your seat belt and get ready for some career coaching with our guests Mazarine Treyz. But before we speak with her, I want to share a bit about an upcoming strategic planning opportunity. As a listener, you know one of my areas of expertise is strategic planning, and let me tell you, I have seen firsthand the necessity of strategic planning time and time again, when I step into organizations that don’t currently have a strategic plan and without a doubt, a thorough, robust, and fearless, that’s right, I said fearless strategic planning process is of incredible value to any organization. The resulting plan defines the direction, and responses of the organization provide a roadmap to better outcomes, and yes, believe it or not even makes the journey there a lot more gratifying. Now, I’m also a realist.

I know that not every nonprofit can afford a consultant to guide them in this process. That knowledge is what spurred me to develop the Strategic Planning Facilitator Cohort Group. It’s a 28-week online program that’s delivered via the web in which qualified board members from 12 different nonprofits can learn and implement the steps to develop a meaningful strategic plan. So, over that 28-week period, they will actually facilitate the strategic planning process at their own organization with our help and guidance. Now, this group is not for everybody. It requires a real commitment of time, energy and human capital to be effective. For those nonprofits who have the right volunteers. This group will be a godsend, both financially and creatively. I’ll tell you more about it in the outro because I have to share with you that we’ve got a great conversation. So, today I welcome Mazarine Treyz, author of Get the Job Your Fundraising Career Empowerment Guide, and by the way, we’re obviously going to post a link to this on our show notes, and you’re going to see it is a great looking cover on this book, but you’re going to like even more what’s between the covers than what is just on the front.

Now, Mazarine wears many hats. In addition to writing the career guide and two other books, she is founder and CEO of Wild Woman Fundraising, CEO of Wild Social Media and owner of Mazarine Treyz Art. Now, Mazarine is passionate about coaching nonprofit leaders and fundraisers in their roles, but first, before she can coach them, they need to land the job. Mazarine and I are going to discuss some key takeaways from her book, and we’ll also look at some case studies of people who advanced into nonprofit leadership positions. And, of course, I am hoping that Mazarine will share about her journey through her really interesting and multifaceted career.

Mazarine welcome to the podcast.

Mazarine Treyz: Thanks for having me Dolph, if I really appreciate it.

Dolph Goldenburg: Well, again, I am so thrilled to have you on. Probably the second most common question I get from people is looking for career advice, so I am so happy to have you on. Let’s talk about how someone can stand out from other applicants for that first-time nonprofit job. So, either they just graduated from college, and they’re looking for a nonprofit job or they want to make that transition from the for-profit sector.

Mazarine Treyz: That’s an excellent question, Dolph. And the way that I would counsel most people to stand apart is to think about their story with the cause that they are applying for in terms of that particular mission area. If you can think of a personal story to put in the first paragraph of your cover letter, you are going to be way more successful than somebody who just says, “Here are the requirements. I can do them.”

Dolph Goldenburg: I love it when people give tips. And I know you’re on the same page as me as this or you’re on the same page with me on this – I hope. Tell me a story about someone who did that really effectively.

Mazarine Treyz: Absolutely. Here’s a story of somebody who was in my, um, fundraising meetup group here in Portland, Oregon where I live. She joined my group, bought my book, Get the Job: Your Fundraising Career Empowerment Guide. And then I sat with her, and I said, “Hey, you know, so there’s something you might not have thought about in terms of cover letters.” And she looked at it and she said, “Oh my God, I never thought to do it this way before. I didn’t know you could do it this way.” Absolutely, you can. And it got me an interview 3000 miles away when I was in Portland, and I got an interview with NPR in DC. And so, in the next week, she left my meetup group, and I’m like, “I’m sorry, did I say something wrong at our meeting?” And she was like, “No, I just got a job in Colorado, and I am moving. Goodbye.” And I was like, “Wow, that’s great!” You know, this works so well that you got a job within one week. So, it really worked for her.

Dolph Goldenburg: So, now I’m really curious, what story did you tell him that cover letter that got you the job at NPR? You can’t tease me like that and not tell me.

Mazarine Treyz: I had no public media background at all. When I was reading my copy of Adbusters this week, I saw a story from Bill Moyers about the freedom of the press and how the future of media is nonprofit. And since NPR is a nonprofit, I immediately thought of NPR and thought about how I want to be part of the future of media. And so, after being involved in publishing in a small way in New York City at The Economist, you know, when I first graduated from college, I thought I would love to do more for NPR. So, here are my qualifications, basically. And they loved it.

Dolph Goldenburg: That’s awesome. And by the way, I love the economist, and I’ll share with you what I love about them. They’re much more conservative than I am, but I love the letters to the editor. They are so snarky

Mazarine Treyz:: I read obituaries a lot actually. I like finding interesting people that way.

Dolph Goldenburg: I’m about obituaries no matter where they are. New York Times, Atlanta Journal Constitution. I’m like, “Wow, this person led such an amazing life.”

Mazarine Treyz: It’s inspiring. Honestly, there are so many things I could say about that.

Dolph Goldenburg: So I don’t know why, but that also makes me think, you know, when we read someone’s obituary, sometimes we’ll see what they did for a living or you know, they were in the military, so we get a little bit of a resume, but we also get a real sense of who they are as a human being and a person, you know. So, you know, like the person was an avid skydiver. Hopefully, they didn’t die that way, but you know, the person was an avid skydiver and left a spouse and, you know, three grown kids and two grandkids. How do people bring that with them into the job search process?

Mazarine Treyz: How are you a whole person?

Dolph Goldenburg: Yeah.

Mazarine Treyz: Because we live under white supremacy, we have a war on mothers in the society and also people that people from the hegemonic masculinity you see as feminine [inaudible]. So that means that if you have kids, sometimes you have to hide that you have kids. If you’re planning to have kids, you have to hide that. I don’t have kids, and I hadn’t planned to have them, but I’ve had that question in a job interview for example. So, it’s a game of what you reveal and what you conceal in the society at this moment.

Dolph Goldenburg: Well, so, so I hold on, I gotta jump in there for a quick second. So, you just said that in job interviews, you’ve been asked if you have kids or plan to have kids? And so, I have to ask, not a lawyer. I know you’re not either; either of us provides legal advice. Is that legal? How did you respond to that question?

Mazarine Treyz: Well, because I was young and naive, I didn’t know that it was illegal. So I said, well, I’m not planning on having kids. And the guy was like, “Oh, that’s good.”

Dolph Goldenburg: Wow. Okay. So, how would the not-so-naive Mazarine answer that question today? Help our listeners out.

Mazarine Treyz: Well because I kind of have a big mouth, I would say, “I’m not sure if you noticed, but that question’s actually illegal.” Yeah, I just say that cause I mean like, I don’t want to mess around with like, let’s move on to the next question. Also, a friend who is a woman of color who routinely is asked how old she is in the interview, and it’s so insulting

Dolph Goldenburg: And also, patently illegal.

Mazarine Treyz: Yeah. I mean like, it’s not like if she’s 25, 45 or 105, is she going to do the job any differently? Like they can tell she’s there. She’s excited. She’s motivated, you know? So, I tell her not to answer that question now.

Dolph Goldenburg: Good for her. And so, do you suggest to her that she say the same thing that she did say, “Hey, that’s an illegal question,” or what do you suggest to her?

Mazarine Treyz: I ask her to say, “You know, I don’t really see how my age has any bearing on how well I will do this job. Would you like to explain it to me?”

Dolph Goldenburg: Oh my gosh, that’s an awesome answer. Oh Mazarine, you rock. Just rock.

Dolph Goldenburg: Has she shared with you how interviewers respond when she replies that way? Besides stuttering?

Mazarine Treyz: That was like the first interview. I haven’t asked her. So, next time we’ll see.

Dolph Goldenburg: So, you’ll have to follow up with me, and we’ll post a little P.S. in the show notes cause like I really want to know besides just stuttering how the interviewer responds to that. That’s awesome.

Mazarine Treyz: When you are not from the dominant culture, you might be making certain assumptions about them depending on how they act and what their culture is. And it’s just better to just try to keep it to the questions that have to do with the job as much as you can.

Dolph Goldenburg: What are some of the other tough interview questions that you coach people on?

Mazarine Treyz: What salary do you expect? That’s a typical one. And I’ve presented at AFP National on that topic on salary negotiation. I’ve also done like four career conferences online for fundraisers specifically helping them answer that question. And I have a section in my book about how to answer that. There are multiple ways that you can deflect that question because ultimately the person who makes a number first is the one who loses in a negotiation.

Dolph Goldenburg: Yes. So, I’m not asking you to drop all the candy in the lobby, but give our listeners a freebie give them one or two ways they can deflect that question.

Mazarine Treyz: Absolutely I will. So, one of the ways you can deflect that question is, “It’s really hard for me to know what my salary requirements would be without knowing the full compensation package and ability for this position to grow. So, get back to me that information, and we’ll go from there.”

Dolph Goldenburg: Admittedly, and, and so who knows, you might tear me apart. I don’t normally ask that question, but normally the question I will ask is, I will say to the person, “The range is between x and y. Is that range workable for you?” How do you feel about that question? Am I, am I stepping over a boundary there?

Mazarine Treyz: I think it’s good for you to name the range and so then they can say to you, what would I have to do in the next six months to justify you getting your res? Like what would I have to hit?

Dolph Goldenburg: I’ve also had people say to me, well, you know, I need to make 20,000 more than the top of the range, and hey, I’m really sorry. You’re really fantastic, but we don’t have an extra 20 grand at the top of the range.

Mazarine Treyz: Yeah. And you might say for fundraiser specifically, you know, we would love to see you prove yourself in this role, and if you hit this number, then we will be able to give you that in a year. In fundraising at least, that ability that they will raise that. It’s almost a certainty if you have the right person in front of you.

Dolph Goldenburg: Right. So, yeah, and I agree with you in fundraising, but I think in a lot of other positions it’s really difficult to say, okay, well, you know, we’ve got this range, but we’ll find a way to go over that range.

Mazarine Treyz: Yeah. And I mean ultimately I feel like salary transparency is important for us to seek equity in our organizations. And that’s really the underlying thread for all the things that I do. It is equity.

Dolph Goldenburg: Nice. In terms of equity, what tips do you give people around resumes?

Mazarine Treyz: So, I just tell people not to put their date they graduated college on their resume because people will try to discriminate against you based on age. I will tell them not to put that they had kids on their resume in case people try to discriminate against you as a mom or a dad or a parent. I tell people that if they can strip off things that would be indicating that they’re a member of a group or another group… Ultimately we know that the white and resume studies showed that if you have a name like John White versus [inaudible] or whatever like that, you’re going to get way more interviews just from your name. So, it’s really hard in nonprofits to overcome implicit bias. And so, it’s really important I think to like try to like strip out all identifying factors that have a resume and just look at people’s qualifications. Almost like doing a blind audition for the resume, you know, blind auditions, um, in orchestras in the fifties. That’s how they opened up orchestras to women. They just had people like audition behind a screen.

Dolph Goldenburg: Really. Very cool. I did not know that.

Mazarine Treyz: You just do blind auditions for resumes. I think it would be a really good place to start. Um, but yeah, once you get into the room, of course, you can see who you’re talking to, and then your biases are always there.

Dolph Goldenburg: So, for those people who maybe are in positions to be doing the hiring, how does an organization or a person go about doing, you know, the blind screening on resumes?

Mazarine Treyz: I would try to get like a firm to strip out people’s names for you so you’re just looking at their qualifications. I’d also have people, you know, try to do a phone interview where you’re just not looking at their face. Then just really pick the top three candidates from that and have an in-person interview with them. MSE international just came out with a statistic on International Women’s Day that 70% of the people that work in nonprofit leadership roles in nonprofits are men, but 80% of the sector is women. So, I’d ask people to think about what the top levels of your organization look like and see about diversifying that in a consistent systematic way. And say 50% of our board is going to be an x or y or z kind of person by the time 2021 rolls around. You know what I mean?

Dolph Goldenburg: The other thing I think that we often see in the nonprofit sector is we see people of color in direct service and middle management and maybe you know, it’s 30 or 40%, but then you look at the executive management team, and it’s pretty much an all-white management team.

Mazarine Treyz: Correct. That’s what we see. And so, I asked a person, um, uh, last week what she likes to look for when she [inaudible] a person of color and she’s like, I see is there anyone on the leadership team who looks like me? And if not, I think am I really going to be able to rise here because it looks like they don’t value or see people like me as leaders.

Dolph Goldenburg: Yeah, that’s a really good point. And people are kind of interviewing their prospective employers as well and saying, is this, is this going to be a place I can grow and thrive?

Mazarine Treyz: Right. And so one of the people that I talked with, she said, I have had for my entire fundraising career, women who are working in 40 and 60 white women as my bosses. So, what does that say about our sector? That we don’t see women of color generally as development directors or CEOs or VPs, you know?

Dolph Goldenburg: So, when we look at equity and inclusion at the, at that C-suite level, what is the board’s responsibility to ensure there is more equity and there is more inclusion?

Mazarine Treyz: First get diversity on the board. Because if you do have those diverse voices in the room, they’re already going to be saying, well, you know, “This is what I think we should do to increase equity at the c suite level, and their opinion matters more than my opinion does.” They might have the internal networks that will help people get to that step and hopefully be a part of the interview process to be part of the C-suite level as well. It’s difficult for people to understand that the fish wraps from the head, so equity has to start at the top.

Dolph Goldenburg: I think also when we’re looking at equity and inclusion and New York is probably this on steroids, but there was a study, it came out maybe two years ago, that over the last 25 years, New York boards have gone from being relatively diverse to being relatively not diverse, and not just in terms of gender and ethnicity but also in terms of occupation. And so, over the last 25 years, lawyers and finance people in New York have taken over boards. Whereas, you know, those two occupations used to represent about 25-30% of board participation, it now represents like 70% of board participation. And now that’s, the view of the world that the board looks at things from. I think that trend is happening all over the country, but it’s kind of on steroids in New York.

Mazarine Treyz: Yeah, it’s a microcosm. I mean, we asked our fundraisers to help us find people that have had the capacity to give, and because of income inequality and capitalism and white supremacy, we’ve seen a greater and greater inequity in our society. And so, if that’s the case, they did their job. They found the people that are still making money, and they put them on our boards. People have the capacity to give. I’m going to lose my job if I don’t find these people. Our executive director said this too, but what Norway did is they required 50% of people on corporate boards to be women, right? And so, they’re much less ethnically diverse country, but they said, Otherwise, we’re going to revoke your corporate charter.” And then they got that. They got that by the deadline that they set. So, I would suggest that people have those requirements and nonprofits just make a policy that like, this is what we’re going to do.

Dolph Goldenburg: I will say that’s kind of cool that Norway is doing that. A few episodes ago, we had someone come on and talk about B Corp’s. So, essentially Norway requires at some level that all of their companies become somewhat like B Corp’s and embrace diversity and what’s right for the community.

Mazarine Treyz: I love that. Yeah, I really don’t believe, and who else didn’t believe this was Lee Iacocca from like, you know, GM or whatever. He was like, shareholder value is bullshit. That’s not why you’re in business. You’re in business to improve the community. A lot of businesses have lost sight of that.

Dolph Goldenburg: Well, and it’s interesting because in the conversation we had around B Corp’s, I kind of feel like a lot of nonprofits have as well. You know that I think a lot of nonprofits, even if they continue to have their nonprofit structure, would benefit from looking at the policies that B Corp’s have to have. You know? So, focus on communities, focus on the people who work for you and the people you serve. And I will say, I think most nonprofits do a great job of focusing on the people they serve, but maybe they’re not focusing on their staff and the communities around them as well as the global community and the environment.

Mazarine Treyz: That leads me to one of my favorite points you make, which is staff love, not donor love #nothankyou. If you don’t treat the people in your organization, right, what impetus did they have to treat your donors right? And how can we say we’re making a better world when inside of organizations we are not treating our employees like full human beings. We’re not giving them time off. We’re not giving them a living wage. We’re not allowing them to have enough healthcare or allowing them to even have a pension for the future. In Canada, they are legislating that nonprofit people can get less precarious work on pensions. Now they are doing this with the Ontario Nonprofit Network, but I have a friend who worked full-time in a domestic violence nonprofit here, and because their board was full of other domestic violence EDs, they said everybody here as an organization can only make $10 an hour at the most $15. Now, in next year in Portland, $15 an hour to be minimum wage. Then her health care was zoom care, and she needed a neurologist appointment.

Dolph Goldenburg: I don’t know what zoom care is and listeners outside of Oregon might not so well, what’s soon care?

Mazarine Treyz: It’s just urgent care. It’s like just walk in and pay $300 to get a doctor to see you.

Dolph Goldenburg: Yeah, so really crappy healthcare. Okay, got it.

Mazarine Treyz: She had to pay neurology at of her own pocket and she couldn’t afford it because she was making 10 dollars an hour nonprofit work and like we see this over and over again, an nonprofits, people sacrificing their workers for the greater good when, honestly, you are total hypocrite if you think you’re working for the greater good and the people inside your organization are suffering.

Dolph Goldenburg: So, I will share with you where I think this starts and the nonprofit sector. I think it starts with interns. If you do an internship in the for-profit sector, for the most part, you’re going to get paid for that internship. You might only make 10 or 15 or 20 bucks an hour, but you’re going to get paid for that internship. Whereas in the nonprofit sector, for the most part, when you do an internship, even when you do it for school credit, you don’t get paid. What that then means is then people get out of school, and their first job is making $15 an hour as opposed to, “Well, that’s what I made as an intern. Now, I need to make 20 or $25 an hour.” And so, it just feels to me like the first rung on the career ladder for folks in the nonprofit sector just start so much lower because we expect some people to work for free. And they’re called interns.

Mazarine Treyz: Yeah. My first nonprofit job was an internship that was unpaid.

Dolph Goldenburg: I mean, and I’m speaking from experience. Yeah. Same here. I was a social work student, and do you know, undergraduate social work students, even graduate social work students, you know, they get free service, but they don’t get paid for it. And there’s the sense of well you’re getting educational credit for it, but if you’re co-oping as an engineering student and your or your cooperating as a business student, guess what? IBM’s paying you.

Mazarine Treyz: That’s right. That’s right.

Dolph Goldenburg: But yeah, so, so to me though, I also think like that sense of, okay, well you know, in the nonprofit sector people will work for less. I really think that mindset start, we, we train people in that mindset from college where like you’re going to work for free, and then you get to be grateful when we give you $12.50 an hour.

Mazarine Treyz: It’s true. And part of the reason, and there’s this research done by the Ontario nonprofit network, they, you have a decent work for women movement. It’s the feminized nature of the sector. If women are doing a job, it’s automatically worth less than if a man is doing your job, which is why you see in professions like law or in financial services, where there is a predominance of men, you’re going to see people getting paid more and same for programming.

Dolph Goldenburg: I could not agree with you more. I actually have said that about the region in which I live because the nonprofit sector in the region which I live, which is the southeastern United States, pays significantly less than cities of comparable sizes and other parts of the country. And I really think it’s because people sort of look at that and say, well, you know, forty years ago that was the work of church women. So, people are lucky we pay them for it.

Mazarine Treyz: And most people don’t know that forty years ago, fundraising was primarily a male profession, and they got paid a lot more. I see the same job that I had over ten years ago in a domestic violence shelter, and they are getting paid the exact same wage that I was paid then advertise now. And I’m like, wow, you wonder why you can’t get good help these days.

Dolph Goldenburg: I could not agree with you more on that. Especially on the things that are just highly competitive like fundraising. So, often I talked to organizations, and they’re either looking for a development director or an executive director, and they want someone who can do everything really well. I’ll say, “I know a lot of people, what’s your pay range?” And, and they’ll say $65,000, and I just kind of look at it, I’m like, I don’t know anyone who would, who would do that job well and would do it for $65,000. I just don’t.

Mazarine Treyz: Right. And so, people who say that they can’t afford more than 65 I say, great, pay them part-time, higher dollar value per hour, and they’ll do an incredible job for you because you’re going to feel like they’re getting compensated fairly.

Dolph Goldenburg: So, give our listeners some salary negotiation tips. So, they got the job offer, and now it’s time for them to say, “Okay, I can’t do that for $65k.” How do they do that?

Mazarine Treyz: You use the A.R.M.S. techniques, so here’s what happens. They say 65 and your BATNA, which is best alternative to a negotiated agreement, you’re really aiming for 75 or 80. What you do is use agree. That’s the A of the A.R.M.S. you say, “I totally get that.” Then use the R of A.R.M.S., and you reframe. Say, “When you think about the 10-plus years of experience that I bring to this role, I’m easily worth the $15k difference.” So then, you make the case. That’s you making the case, and then the S part is shut up, silence. Let them consider what you just said.

You may also want to put in, I raise this much to this much if you’re a fundraiser or you have way more experience than they’re asking for. If you’re not, if you’re a program person or if you’re an executive director and people say both of those things, right? Because you’d be waiting, raising money too if you’re an executive director. I knew an executive director who was interviewing for a role, and what she said was, “I need to see that the board has faith in me that I can raise this money.” And then this guy said, finally, “Well, what would number would make you happy?” She wrote it down on the contract, and she threw it back to him. And he’s like, “Okay.” And she’s like, “Just between you and me, they’re going to get this money back because I’m going to give it thousand dollars a year to this organization as a major donor so that I can go out and ask for money as a major donor.”

Dolph Goldenburg: Yes. And it’s interesting because whenever I’ve been in, I’ve always been a major donor and I’m kind of on the same page where I’m like, you’ve got to pay your executives well enough that they can afford to be a major donor so that they’re equals when they’re talking to people who in the community who make a major commitment.

Mazarine Treyz: Right. And if you don’t, then you’re kind of a hypocrite.

Dolph Goldenburg: A.R.M.S. Absolutely. So, just real quick though to summarize for our listeners A.R.M.S, so it’s agree with them, but reframe, make your case and then shut up. And you know, back when I was a baby fundraiser, I think that was probably the first thing that my development director boss said. She was amazing, but she was a white woman between 40 and 60. She always said, “After you ask for the money, shut up. Just count in your head. You won’t get past 15,” is when she would always say to me, but that’s also true when we’re asking for ourselves.

Mazarine Treyz: That’s right. That’s right. You can use this for major gifts as well.

Dolph Goldenburg: Yeah, exactly. But I mean, yeah, but like, you know, but when we’re asking for ourselves in terms of negotiating our salary, you know, yeah. It might feel uncomfortable. So just start counting in your head. Just go one, two in your head, and I don’t think anyone got to 10 before somebody responded. You’re certainly never going to get to 15.

Mazarine Treyz: People really do want to avoid it is quite an amazing thing to play with.

Dolph Goldenburg: Yes, it is. Oh yes, it is.

Dolph Goldenburg: So, we’ve talked about salary and we’ve talked about how to negotiate the salary. What else should people be thinking about negotiating before they accept the job?

Mazarine Treyz: Obviously, vacation, numbers of days work from home. If you have family responsibilities, negotiating when you’ll lean to take time for that. For women especially, you’ll be expected more to take care of your family, aging parents, relatives or you know, children. So, that’s something that a compassionate nonprofit will appreciate and want to help you feel comfortable taking that time. I’d also negotiate continuing education budget for you. Will they help you get your next degree? That’s a good reason for you to stay. Will they also train you and give you further education throughout the year? I would also negotiate maybe membership in an association that will help you. Are there online membership programs? I have one. Gail Perry has one. [inaudible] Miller has one. Those are useful. Can you negotiate what budget there’ll be for the fundraising program?

Because if they don’t have a donor database, you are being set up for failure. You definitely need to like make sure that that budget is there for you to be successful and maybe even negotiate a part-time person for you to have for various admin tasks. There’s a lot of things you can negotiate, healthcare stuff you can negotiate. Again, asking that key question, what would have to do in the first six months to justify you giving me a raise? And you can see the metrics that matter to your boss, and then you can already start thinking about how can I give this person a raise Like right in your first or second conversation with them.

Dolph Goldenburg: The couple of things that I’ve learned about from a negotiation with, first I learned from one of my mentors. I was engaged in a negotiation. I asked her for some advice, and some of the best advice I ever got around essentially negotiating your next job. And she said to me, Dolph at this point they have said that they want you. They have more to lose by you saying no than you have to lose by you saying no because you have a job. You like the job you have. So, you need to ask for everything you want because you will never have more leverage than you do right now. And if you don’t get it now, don’t be upset that you don’t get it later.

Mazarine Treyz: Yeah. This is when you ask for everything.

Dolph Goldenburg: But I think especially in the nonprofit sector where again, we’re trained from, you know, being free interns going forward, I’m going to come in and prove my worth, and then they’re going to do this or that for me. Negotiate that up front. Don’t come back a year later and ask for something else. Because at that point, you don’t have as much leverage.

Mazarine Treyz: Well, it’s quite so, and there is an article in Mother Jones in 2011 called “The Speed Up: More Work for No Pay.” And there was a quote in there from an adjunct professor at a college named Heather who said, “Never assume that what you’re going to get paid is going to change it all. You’d rather be paid fairly on your terms, not theirs from day one or you never will be.

Dolph Goldenburg: And actually wrote a blog post about this. But one of the things that I say that’s a little bit different but similar, “Negotiate for as much as you can possibly get before you accept the job. But once you’ve accepted it, act like you’re paid $1 million a year.” I got what I wanted. I’m happy. Because the other thing that happens to us as humans, you know, we negotiate for what we want, but six months later when we’ve got it, and it does not feel like as much, you know, but to kind of be like, okay, this is exactly what I wanted. I got what I wanted, and I’m happy.

Mazarine Treyz: Yeah, that’s what you’re describing is called the Hedonic Treadmill, which is one of the things that make somebody who has, for example, a Golden Globe Award, want to get an Oscar. If you raise $1 million and your goal was a million, it makes your boss say, “Okay, great, let’s do $2 million next year.” Hedonic Treadmill: It’s no longer enough for them. And we humans have this cognitive bias around always thinking of what we have is not enough, and it’s good to strive for things. But as you said it, pretending that you have everything that you want right in this moment is such a beautiful thing to trick your brain into doing. You’ll be happier. And ultimately you can get off the hedonic treadmill, and if you see your boss getting on that, you may want to name and claim, “I see that you are getting on the hedonic treadmill here, boss, and we’re actually doing really well. We’re hitting our goals. And if you want me to have a greater goal, you really need to give me a much greater salary increase and a greater budget with much more people to double our or fundraising return.”

Dolph Goldenburg: The other thing that I kind of learned along the way in my career, you know, now that I’m a consultant, I don’t really negotiate vacation time, because you know, I negotiate engagements, and I figure out my vacation on my own. One of the things that I learned really early on is to not give up vacation time. So, you know, so when I was negotiating for a new job, someone say, “Oh your first year, you get three weeks for vacation.” And I would say to them “Well, I currently have four, and I can’t have less than that.” And only once did that blow my ability to get a job because most people, if they really want you, they’ll give you that extra week of vacation. Consequently, by the time I was at my last job, I had like five and a half weeks of vacation because I just refused to go back. When I was negotiating, I would say, “Well, I currently get four, so I need at least four.” Once I got in a couple of years later, maybe I find some way. I’d buy back an extra week or whatever, and that’s how I got five. You know what I mean? When I negotiate it again, I said, “Well, I currently have five, I need at least five.”

Mazarine Treyz: I love that. And that’s something too that I would definitely encourage people to think about. In Europe, they have seven or six weeks of vacation. We are the barbarians that have three or none promised to us. We were the barbarians that only gave women six weeks of maternity leave. We’re the barbarians that don’t pay people paternity leave. What if you wanted to have a kid, Dolph? What if you wanted to have time to bond with that kid? You should have that time because that kid is going to love you, and not giving you the time is really inhumane.

Dolph Goldenburg: I will also share with you, though – and so this is my own selfish perspective. We don’t have kids. We don’t want to have kids. I think regardless of whether or not you want to have kids, everybody should be able to find ways to take significant amounts of time off and pursue what they find passionate. Like everybody.

Mazarine Treyz: Yes, I agree! It shouldn’t be anyone’s prerogative whether or not you have children. Absolutely. Take a sabbatical from your job for six months or a year and then be able to come back and be stronger than ever.

Dolph Goldenburg: So, one of the best practices that I love to talk about, we actually had them on the podcast maybe a year or so ago from Funders for LGTBQ Issues in New York. They have a written policy that every employee gets a paid two-months, no questions asked sabbatical every five years, not just the CEO, not just the development director and the CEO. Everybody from the person that started five years ago was an admin assistant and is maybe a coordinator now to the CEO. And there’s something powerful about that. And you know, two months is not a year, but you know, as someone who has had really the luxury and the privilege of being able to take a couple months off at a time, there’s nothing like having this long stretch of time before you and being able to do whatever you want in that time.

Mazarine Treyz: Oh, it’s wonderful. I was talking with an executive director in New York yesterday, and she said, “I met this guy at a party, and he got paid by like the Episcopalian to have a two-year sabbatical to do whatever he wanted and basically do nothing. And he would check in with other people in his cohort or whatever.” And she’s like, “God, I want to do that.” And I’m like, and I think you should. How can you make that happen? And you know, and maybe it was a seminary or something, but he did not have to like study religion. It was just like, go do nothing for two years. She asked him, how did that feel to you? And he’s like, “It changed my life. It was incredible.”

Dolph Goldenburg: I intentionally, um, Gosh, back in 2014 I intentionally took eight months off. I gave 10-months’ notice at my job before I started my consulting practice, and I took eight months off. And of course, it was self-financed. Again, talking about privilege, when you have privilege, you can self-finance, your own sabbatical. It also completely changed my life, and it actually made me realize now one of my biggest regrets is that I did not take six to 12 months off in my twenties into my thirties. I will do it in my fifties, and I’ll be working until I’m 70, so I will do it in my fifties. I will do it in my sixties because what I realized is that what I wanted to do in my forties is very different from what I would have done in my thirties and very different from what I will be doing in my fifties. From my perspective, yeah. It means I’m going to end up working into my seventies, but I’m going to get six to 12 months of retirement in my forties and my fifties and my sixties, and it will be a very different, unique experience that I’m going to treasure.

Mazarine Treyz: Oh yeah. You’re going to have so much renewal and creativity and relationships and joy in your life that you wouldn’t otherwise have had.

Dolph Goldenburg: Absolutely. Well, Wild Woman Fundraiser, Mazarine, I have to tell you, I’m looking at the clock, and this conversation is so great that we’re running out of time. I’ve got to have time for the Off-the-map Question. So, my Off-the-Map question for you is, I think I read somewhere that you do destiny card readings, and I have never heard of a destiny card. You’re going to have to tell me what this is.

Mazarine Treyz: I’d love to. So, this is actually something I incorporate in my career consulting. With destiny card readings, what I like to do is I like to combine the strengths finder test, human design and destiny cards as a personality composite for a person because I believe that every person is very unique and different. Destiny cards are based on the day that you’re born, and every card is a different day of the year. So, when is your birthday, Dolph?

Dolph Goldenburg: October fourth.

Mazarine Treyz: October fourth. Yeah, so you’re the five of diamonds.

Dolph Goldenburg: Wow! You know that on the top of your head!

Mazarine Treyz: I memorized it. I got certified in destiny cards, um, to do. Um, but so, uh, five of diamonds and so like, so each suit and each number of each card has a different meaning, right? I mean it comes from like an ancient Egyptian system that’s like as old as the Taro basically. And it allows you to help you understand who you are, what your biases are towards what you think of yourself and others and helps you understand other people and helps you get along with them better. So, for example, my whole family is double diamonds, which means that they’re very interested in being adults and making things happen in the world. Their appearance and money and values are key words for them. But I was born in eight of hearts in a six of clubs, which means that I’m really interested in relationships in family and also in like, you know, speaking the truth. So, hearts are about children like childhood and family and relationships. Clubs are about knowledge and words and writing and adolescents. Diamonds are about adulthood. Spades or about will and old age and health and lifestyle. So, because of my cards, I was able to get a perspective on why I am so different from the rest of my family and how can I accept them and love them exactly as they are and, in that way, come to peace and acceptance with them. Do you know what I mean?

Dolph Goldenburg: I do. Very cool.

Mazarine Treyz: Right. And tell me to help other people to understand what to do at work and at home to get along with people and say, “Oh, okay, this person doesn’t care about money the way I do. They really care about this thing. And so now this is a language I need to use to talk with them and reach them”. Do you know what I mean?

Dolph Goldenburg: I do. Now, when this is over, I’m going to have to Google the five of diamonds and see what I am.

Mazarine Treyz: I can tell you more about you if you want to.

Dolph Goldenburg: We actually really are running out of time. I am looking at the clock. We are running out of time. I am totally going to have to figure this one out. Thank you.

Mazarine – and I say this in almost every episode, we’re actually looking at each other because we’re on Skype. I don’t smile this much in every single episode that we record, and we have just been grinning ear to ear at each other this entire episode. Thank you so much for coming on. I can tell you right now that you have helped our listeners get a better shot at getting the job they’re going to love, but also just as importantly, you’ve also helped them figure out how to value themselves and negotiate in a way that shows they value themselves. Now dear listeners, if you want to know more, if you want to join Mazarine’s online group or you want to get more information about how you can get the job and get the money that you’re worth, then go to www.wildwomanfundraising.com. Now, you can also get a book, Get the Job: Your Fundraising Career Empowerment Guide online. And believe it or not, there are still Brick and Mortar bookstores, and you could probably walk into one of those and get it as well or ask them to order it for you.

Dolph Goldenburg: Hey Mazarine, thank you again. What a real pleasure.

Mazarine Treyz: So my pleasure as well. Thank you, Dolph.

Dolph Goldenburg: So, if you missed Mazarine’s contact information or you want to see some of her art, head on over to http://www.successfulnonprofits.com because one of the things she and I did not really talk about, she’s also an artist. So, we’re gonna put some links on our show notes so you can learn more. And let me share with you, this is a person you want to know more about. Now, you’ll find all of our links, the link to her book, the link to her consulting practice, the link to everything about her you will find at our show notes. Now, as I mentioned in the intro Successful Nonprofits™ is offering a strategic planning facilitator cohort group. This 28-week program makes available the proven strategic planning process that I’ve developed through my consulting work. If you’re interested, make sure you go over to www.successfulnonprofits.com. I will share with you that at the time that this episode airs, I believe the price has gone up to $3,500 to participate. But if you are a podcast listener, and when you call to schedule that conversation to see whether or not you’re a good fit for this and you tell me you are a podcast listener, we will give you a $600 break. And what’s more, if you tell me you’re a podcat listener, we’ll still give you the $600 break. So, check it out. Now. That’s our show for this week. I hope you have gained some insight to help your nonprofit thrive in a competitive environment.