Everyone wants their organization’s story told but very few know how to cultivate reporters and pitch stories like a pro. When done well, reporters will actually start coming to you for quotes and stories!
Kristen Elworthy uses her career in journalism to help nonprofits craft their message and successfully pitch relevant stories to the media. She joins us today to help you become a media expert. Listen in for proven techniques to choose the right media outlet for you, craft your message in an effective way, and build mutually beneficial relationships with reporters.
Listen to the Episode Here!
Website: Seven Hills Communication
Successful Nonprofits: Coaching for Tough Times
(4:20) Find your niche
(10:00) Prepare for inbound interviews
(15:43) HARO as a strategy mechanism
(19:34) Preparing for outbound interviews
Dolph Goldenburg (00:00):
Welcome to the Successful Nonprofits® Podcast. I’m your host, Dolph Goldenberg. And today we are going to be having an incredible conversation with Kristen Elworthy. We’re going to be talking about positioning yourself as a media expert. Before we do, I just need to remind you that we are getting ready to launch our group coaching for executive directors on Coaching for Tough Times. If you’re an ED and you’re concerned about your organization’s welfare in 2021, you should absolutely join this coaching group. It starts in January. It is curriculum-based. And we are going to walk you through everything you need so that 2021 will be a great year. Keeping in mind that, historically, most nonprofits fare worse in year two of the recession than in year one. So head over to successfulnonprofits.com and check out our Coaching for Tough Times.
Dolph Goldenburg (01:01):
Now, let me share with you just a little bit about our topic today. We’re going to be talking about positioning yourself as a media expert. And as I was preparing for this conversation with Kristen, I thought back to my first time as an executive director. And I thought back to the media training that I got. And I need to share with you, it wasn’t phenomenal training. Three board members independently took me aside and each gave me their media tips. And they said, “If you just do this one thing, everything’s going to turn out.” The first piece of advice was, if it’s on TV, always bring donuts to makeup because they’re going to make you look great. And most listeners know I have a shaved head. So they said to me, “Oh yeah, your head is not going to shine because they’re going to make you look really great.” And I look back on that and that is such an outdated idea. Think about all the different dietary requirements and preferences that you have. What if you brought donuts to someone who’s a diabetic? They’re not going to go, “Oh, well they brought me donuts. I better make them look right.”
Dolph Goldenburg (02:09):
The second piece of advice I got actually came from one of my board chairs, and that was if I wanted to start over and it was prerecorded, I should swear because then they’d say, “Okay, let’s back this up and start over.” That was also probably really bad advice because you never want to be on tape swearing. And then the third piece of advice I got was to always call a reporter back quickly because they’re on deadline. That was probably the one keeper out of the three pieces of advice I got.
Dolph Goldenburg (02:45):
So that’s the training that I got and it was not sufficient training to be a great spokesperson for my organization in the media. And I think that’s not uncommon for most non-profits as an executive director; they don’t really make sure you get great media training. And that’s why we invited Kristen Elworthy. I adore the work that Kristen Elworthy is doing. She is absolutely incredible. She is the founder and CEO of Seven Hills Communication. They do brand communication, public relations, and copywriting. But I’ve got to share with you that Kristen didn’t learn this as a consultant. She learned it from the other side; she started her career as a beat reporter. And there is no one better to explain to you how to position yourself for the media than someone who has been the media, who has been that beat reporter who understands what it means when someone has a good interview and someone doesn’t. And so I am so excited that Kristen is joining us today. She is, without a doubt, one of the best thought leaders in marketing and publicity consulting today. So ,Kristen, welcome to the podcast.
Kristen Elworthy (04:16):
Thank you so much for having me and for your kind words, I appreciate it.
Dolph Goldenburg (04:20):
One of the things that really stood out for me on your website is your concept that the best media pitches are in the niches. Can you say a little bit about that?
Kristen Elworthy (04:38):
Sure. So I have to say that is your catchphrase, but I might have to steal it because it is absolutely true. I work with a lot of mission-based organizations and nonprofits. This really applies to anyone, whether they’re a nonprofit or a for-profit, but figuring out exactly who your target audience is often will bring you some surprising insights. When I started out, literally everybody would tell me, “I just want to be in the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal.” Which is great, who doesn’t? And I’ve worked with those publications and had clients featured there. But over the years, I’ve really learned that if we can drill down and think more about what your goal is for the media outreach you’re doing and who you really need to be talking to, you might have some surprising results on that.
Kristen Elworthy (05:24):
So I’ll give you a great example of a non-profit I work with. They work with large employers and big corporations on financial security issues. And they had in the same week, a quote in a longer story about retirement on the Wall Street Journal’s front page. And the same week, one of their leaders wrote an op-ed for an HR trade on a similar topic. And the executive director sent me an email and he was like, “These are great. I really love this op-ed.” It was such an indication of how that dynamic plays out. He said, “This speaks to exactly the audience that we have. We got to say exactly what we wanted to say.” The op-ed is obviously longer as opposed to a short quote. You’re just one guy in the Wall Street Journal in a long piece. That’s how they operate. That’s why they’re so great.
Kristen Elworthy (06:20):
But in a trade, they really want your point of view. So this applies really to almost anything. If you’re a local social services organization, it’s fantastic to get stories in your regional papers or in your national outlets if you can. But those hyper-local outlets, that’s where your donors are living. That’s where you need to figure out how to tell them what you’re doing and what you need from them to succeed. That’s more general media niche. It’s great to be in the New York Times, but I’m not sure that it’s going to make a big difference to your donations.
Kristen Elworthy (06:57):
Something I always point out to people about those big national hits is that PR is a two-sided street. So you have the lead generation side. This is raising your awareness with people who don’t know about you, making people come to your site and donate to a cause or to your mission. And then you have your social proof side. That’s when someone lands on your site and sees that you’ve been featured in the New York Times. So they may have come from someplace else, like your local paper or a trade. But that fact that you’ve been featured in that high-level outlet says to them that you have something important to say. So I would say there’s sort of a balance that you have to strike, but the niches in terms of finding the right audience for your message and driving your mission forward, a lot of times figuring that out is so important.
Dolph Goldenburg (08:01):
I love that. I reflected on that when I read it on your blog and I just found it to be so true. As I thought back in terms of my own career, I remember in 2010 when my organization and I, as the executive director, was on the cover of the Chronicle of Philanthropy. But the audience for that niche is really other nonprofits and foundations. So our foundation funders were super impressed but our major donors couldn’t give two flicks because they didn’t understand that that’s an important media for the nonprofit sector. But if we were in the Atlanta Journal Constitution, our major donors would look at that and go, “Oh my gosh, they made it into the AJC!”
Kristen Elworthy (08:58):
Exactly. You’re spot on. And it’s really important to have that higher level, multi-faceted view on it, too. So think about what the different audiences will need. And that includes internal, your staff. What makes them feel good? Does it make them feel good to have the work you’re doing talked about in local or regional media so that they can share that with their friends and family in a way that matters? There are so many facets that media relations can fulfill. So it’s important to sit down and identify your goals and target audiences just like you would with any other campaign. And then from there you can figure out how you get those placements that are going to speak to those audiences. And what you say, by the way, is really important when you get there. So your Chronicle of Philanthropy discussion is a much different discussion than what you might have in the Boston Globe.
Dolph Goldenburg (10:00):
So let’s unpack that, Kristen. How do organizations figure out what they’re going to say? And obviously part of it is driven based on what the media said the conversation is going to be about. So if the reporter says, “Oh, we’re gonna talk about funding crisis among nonprofits” or, “”Oh, we’re going to talk about increased demand at your shelter because of the pandemic and the recession. So obviously that’s going to drive it, but how do you figure out what you’re going to say?
Kristen Elworthy (10:26):
First of all, there’s the inbound media inquiries, which is what you’re talking about right now. You’ll get an inquiry from an opinion writer about a specific topic. So is going to drive the conversation. And then the other is what you’re pitching, your point of view.
Kristen Elworthy (10:43):
Let’s start with the inbound ones first, because even if the reporter is telling you what he or she wants to talk about, messaging it for your organization is super important. My biggest thing is: be helpful. These guys have 20 minutes to talk to you. They need someone who’s really amazing who can give them the insight and the quote they need for their story. They do not need a promotional, it won’t make it in and you’ve wasted everyone’s time and they won’t call you next time. So you really want to think about how can you be helpful while also advancing your mission. And sometimes the reporter doesn’t quite understand what you do or your niche or what you might be able to speak to. So I always try to work with clients to identify what they want to say, identify what the reporter wants, and figure out how to meet in between. That when she asks you about X, maybe you can make the case for Y. For example, you can say, “It’s really important that we talk about that. But you know, the foundation of that issue is this thing that we work on.” That’s one way you take those off-topic pitches.
Dolph Goldenburg (11:59):
I’ve got it a quick question on that. Is it appropriate in that situation to plant seeds for future articles? And so, for example, if you’re having a conversation with a reporter now about the recession to say, “Hey, if around the holidays, you’re looking for a real client story that’s a feature story, reach out to us because we might be able to help you”
Kristen Elworthy (12:21):
It is super appropriate to do that, especially if you’re being helpful. I always follow up with reporters on behalf of my clients. My favorite thing is when the reporters start reaching out directly to the staff. Staff usually loop me in when that happens so I know I’m not pitching them at the same time. But that’s amazing. That’s the goal. A lot of PR people are possessive about those relationships. But I hope that the reporter is going to call you or email you because that says to me that we’ve made some momentum and you’re being looked at as an expert. That’s success, in my opinion. So, yeah, it’s appropriate to reach out to them, keep in touch, and just ping them a quick couple of sentences whenever you have something to say.
Dolph Goldenburg (13:16):
And is it appropriate at that same time then to say to the reporter, “Let me give you my cell phone number and my personal email in case you need to reach me.”
Kristen Elworthy (13:26):
Absolutely. I would advise talking to your PR agency or consultant if you have one because everybody works a little differently. And I personally always ask that my clients keep me looped in because we all want to be on the same page. I don’t want to be saying one thing while my client is calling them saying something else. It’s awkward. And I think there are some people within organizations that are more able to speak off the cuff if they get a phone call on a Sunday night. And there are others that maybe should take the night and think about what they’re going to say in the morning. So if you are working with a consultant or you have someone on staff who manages media relations, I would just get on the same page. But from the reporter point of view, I think that’s totally appropriate. It’s just really an internal decision of how off the cuff you want to be. And everyone has different comfort levels with that.
Dolph Goldenburg (14:10):
And that certainly seems fair if you’re working with a professional, make sure the professional knows what you’re doing so they can help you.
Kristen Elworthy (14:17):
Exactly. And I would also say, going into these interviews, do your research on the reporter. Take a look at the things they’ve written and take a look at their bio to see where are they coming from. You may be surprised that they write certain types of stories and have a certain mindset. So you can take that into account to make sure that your messaging is on point. And I always suggest that people write out a couple of talking points that they want to get across in the interview because once you get into conversation, you tend to forget or go off topic.
Kristen Elworthy (14:54):
The other important thing to remember is that, most likely but not in every case, the reporter is interviewing several people about this. And you’re going to have a bunch of people say a bunch of basic things. And then you’re going to get at the end of the interview in the last 30 seconds to the real thing that you have to say that’s different. You need to start with that. So she’s already got the basics. She’s got the background. You don’t need to say the same thing five other guys said that she can Google. Don’t say that, don’t explain it. Be quick, move on, and then get to the stuff that’s going to get your organization noticed. That’s also how you’re going to get quoted. A lot of times I see people’s quotes getting cut because they really don’t say something that was unique or different. And the reporter already had somebody else saying it, maybe somebody more qualified to say it. So that’s the quote they’re going to use.
Dolph Goldenburg (15:43):
I love that: get to the most important stuff. Totally love that. So I have a feeling we’re about to talk about outbound, which is where you reach out to reporters and the media. Before we do that, I want to ask what’s your opinion about HARO?
Kristen Elworthy (16:17):
Absolutely. So HARO is, Help A Reporter Out. It’s a free service you can sign up for and you get a list of outbound inquiries on various topics three times a day. So it’s reporters saying, “Hey, I’m doing a story on X and I’m looking for the following sources.” And you can reply to those and give your pitch. So it helps you get into a story that you might not know is otherwise happening. I find that they tend to get hammered with pitches. I have had success getting placements on them, but use HARO more as a way to identify trends or people that we should be pitching or story ideas.
Kristen Elworthy (17:15):
So I’ll look, and I’ll say, “Ooh, this person is writing about this topic. That’s not exactly what we’re talking about here, but I bet they might be interested in a pitch on this other topic.” And so that helps me figure out new sources to pitch. And I always say, pitching is an art and a science. It’s a little bit about numbers and finding the right people for your beat. But it’s also about tracking and finding the person who has almost written about the thing that you’re talking about, but hasn’t yet. Because if they already did, it’s too late. So it helps identify the timing of the pitch.
Dolph Goldenburg (17:52):
In the intro, Kristen, I said that you’re one of the premier thought leaders in PR and marketing. You really just underscored that as a fact, because most people use HARO as a response mechanism and not as a strategy mechanism. And that really shows that you are working at a much more elevated and higher level. Super impressive.
Kristen Elworthy (18:17):
Thank you. You learn a lot over the years, like anyone else. And HARO is just one way to track what people are writing about. There’s also Google alerts, following people on Twitter, etc. You really just want to track them and know who’s writing about what. Because, as a PR consultant, the worst, most sinking feeling is when a story comes out and your client is not in it and they should have been. It’s like the worst. And it usually happens because the reporter didn’t even know you existed and that’s not a good place to be. So by keeping an eye on what’s going on, it reduces the chance that that’s going to happen.
Dolph Goldenburg (19:07):
We’ve got to stop for a second because you just dropped an actionable tip. And I need to make sure that all of our listeners, especially those that are doing DIY marketing, heard that tip, which is: identify the reporters that are writing, producing in your niche, and then follow them on Twitter so that you know what they’re interested in and what they’re working on. Love that
Kristen Elworthy (19:30):
Yes. And use a list so that you can click on the list and see just that.
Dolph Goldenburg (19:34):
Never thought about that. Also really good idea. That’s super impressive. I want to make sure we have an opportunity to talk about outbound because I have a feeling that that’s probably one of the most productive ways that nonprofits can really be getting meetings.
Kristen Elworthy (19:47):
Yeah. So outbound media is what most people hire me for. And that’s usually where most people have to start. If you don’t have a lot of presence yet or you have something you want to say, reporters don’t know that. So that’s where the outbound piece comes. So that’s all about that first thing we talked about: figuring out your target audience, your niche, and your message to that niche. And then the next step is really figuring out what are you going to pitch to them. This can be at such a huge range for nonprofits. It could be case studies. It could be expert discussions with your executive director or other members of your staff. It could be an amazing fundraising campaign that you want covered in local news. It could be data, statistics, or reports. There are so many ways to get that coverage.
Kristen Elworthy (20:30):
So it’s all about figuring out what it is you guys want to get covered and then figuring out what reporters are writing about. I will be very honest with people and I’ll say, “I know you want it covered, but if we pitch it like that, it’s not going to happen. Nobody wants to hear that. So let’s think about what things they are interested in and how we can work these stats, these numbers into those bigger pitches.” There’s so much going on with COVID right now around wealth and equity and the racial wealth gap and all those other things. So you may have some relatively generic studies going on or some local initiatives you’re doing that tie into that. And so it’s all about figuring out how we can make this really matter for people.
Kristen Elworthy (21:10):
It’s a really tough media environment right now because of what’s happening. So it’s very loud. A lot of reporters can’t really write about anything that’s not related to the current administration or the current health crisis or the black lives matter movement and racial inequity, etc. So you really need to get tied into those somehow. And you need to think of an authentic, helpful way to tie in. You don’t want to be exploitative. If you don’t have anything to say, just don’t say it. But those more niche publications, those local or trade publications, are a little less tied to this big national conversation. So you can have more flexibility with them. But you need to figure out what you’re going to say and who you’re going to pitch to.
Kristen Elworthy (21:51):
You want short, simple pitches. My goal is to get them to say, “Yes, I’m interested.” That’s it. I don’t need to give them everybody’s life story. I don’t need to give them the full report. So I always remind people two paragraphs is plenty. Maybe a couple of bullet points if you have some interesting points to put in. Just give them an idea of what you’re going to say so that they understand who they’re interviewing and how it’s going to fit into the overall story. If applicable, give them a little “So-and-so is an expert because…” type statement. Just make them understand why you’re a person that they want to talk to for stories that they’re currently covering or for a story that they should be covering. So it’s really a little bit of a mishmash of strategy.
Dolph Goldenburg (22:42):
I want to understand this from the other side of the fence as well, from the reporter side. And you’re uniquely qualified because you were a beat reporter. So some of the things I heard you say were that a couple paragraphs is plenty and bullet points are good. So describe this from the beat reporters perspective. How much time do they have to vet a source and decide whether or not to talk to them? And then how much time do they have to actually prepare for that interview and do the interview?
Kristen Elworthy (23:12):
Sure. So when I was younger I worked at a local mid-sized city paper. Just to give you some sense of perspective, I was responsible for two stories a day every day. Which included sourcing them, interviewing, and writing everything. So that’s a lot. And a lot of people now are not responsible for that. So some reporters are writing a month out. Sometimes they’re writing for an hour out. I once had 20 minutes to get someone on the phone with the New York Times. And I did it. So it’s just about really figuring out your reporter’s deadline.
Kristen Elworthy (23:50):
But the reporter is getting a ton of inbounds every day. So your subject line is super important. So I’ll put expert, the topic and the person’s name in the subject line so that they know what they are opening. Keep the body of the email short. I use bold and underline to highlight a couple of things since they’re just scanning. Put links in; do not send attachments because it will get caught by their spam filters. Your pitch might not be the right thing for them that day. And if it’s not related to what they’re writing that day, they might ignore it. Don’t be hurt; as a reporter I used to not reply. But I’ve also had people come back to me after six months and say, “Hey, I saved your email. Can I talk to so-and-so?” So it’s totally worth reaching out, even if your pitch might not be perfect right now. It’s also ok to do a follow-up. It it’s breaking news, check back in two hours. If it’s less timely check back after two days or two weeks. And do not call unless they ask.
Dolph Goldenburg (25:13):
Definitely good to know. And good to understand that from the perspective of the media. The last thing I was really hoping we would talk about is, and you’ve already mentioned this, that right now, organizations have to be looking to capitalize on the current events of the day. And you hear this all the time. And I hear this all the time from nonprofits, “Well, we just want the media to cover the fact that we served 10,000 people last year, and that’s important.” But that’s not really a news story. So how do nonprofits position themselves to capitalize on the current events of the day?
Kristen Elworthy (25:48):
So in your example, where someone served 10,000 people last year, you know something about those 10,000 people. So if you’re talking about, for example, a social services organization that is serving lower income people, you know where they were at before COVID hit and the economic crisis that we have right now happened. And you might know something about where they’re at now. So maybe a reporter is not particularly interested in the 10,000 people story, but they might be interested in you saying, “So-and-so can speak to you about what they saw with the 10,000 people they served last year, what their biggest challenges were, what data we have on it, and what the new challenges are in 2020.” That still gets your organization’s messages out. You still get to say you served 10,000 people last year and you made an impact, but now you’re giving the media something useful that they can actually use.
Dolph Goldenburg (26:37):
I love that. And also if you’ve seen an increase in need, you can say, “We served 10,000 people last year but we’re on target to 13,000 this year, that’s a 30% increase, and here’s what that 30% increase looks like.” Love that.
Kristen Elworthy (26:49):
You are 100% right. And if you start thinking that way, you’re way more helpful for the reporters. And you don’t feel like you’re being sleazy or capitalizing when you are helpful. And I think that’s a major thing. People don’t want to be egotistical or brag about themselves, especially nonprofit professionals. They’re much different than startups that I work with in terms of the ego and the willingness to go out on limbs. And so if you’re looking at it from the mindset of “I’m going to be helpful. This is a story that’s important for people to know about. And it’s good insight for the reporter to have,” it feels better to do that outreach than it does to just feel self-crucial, especially when there are so many other things going on.
Dolph Goldenburg (27:28):
Wow. That’s awesome. Kristen, we’ve got to save time for the off-the-map question. You were a beat reporter, as you said, in a midsize regional publication. Here’s my question for you: If you could just pick one story as the most powerful story, the most memorable story that you worked on, which one stands out for you?
Kristen Elworthy (28:05):
That’s a great question. So it was actually one of my first stories that I wrote at the paper. All the details escape me a little bit at this point. But it was about a little boy who had lost his leg underneath his knee and they were doing some fundraising. It was one of those local interest stories. And I just remember it was my first couple of days on the job and I just did what I needed to do: got the story, wrote the story, got a photo. And the mom called me crying, in a good way, because of the response they were getting from the community and how the story had helped her son. And it just reminded me of the impact that journalism really can have. And I may be on the other side now, but I am such a believer in the power of journalism. People forget how much it matters to have their stories told. And that’s how I look at the clients I work with. But that first story just stuck with me. And I always thought about honoring the stories I was telling, good and bad, and just making sure that people’s stories were being recorded and being respectful of that. And I think that’s just taught me so much. I don’t know if it’s the most powerful story the paper’s ever run, but for me, it just sticks with me 13 years later,
Dolph Goldenburg (29:22):
I love that. And I think it really also speaks to the fact that media, whether you’re writing it or you’re consuming it, is so personal. So I’m sure there’s some other people out there, not just that family, where 13 years later, that’s the story they remember and they tell people about it.
Kristen Elworthy (29:37):
A hundred percent. And my husband and I always have the argument over journalistic integrity and being objective. In the end, a human is writing the story. We have ethical standards, but there’s somebody who has to put the words on the page. It’s not a robot. So, as a journalist, I think you have to keep that in mind. But, yeah, it can be so powerful and it can be powerful for the people that have the chance to be featured as well. So just thinking about the power that you can have, like getting your word out to all of those people, that’s why I do what I do. I just love it.
Dolph Goldenburg (30:09):
Kristen, I am so grateful that you have come on the podcast to share with our listeners how they can get media ready. The fall is a big time for nonprofits to be approaching the media. I think this will probably release sometime in October, November. And so I know you’ve dropped some actionable tips that our listeners are going to be able to use. Oh my gosh, thank you so much. I have to make sure that listeners know how to get ahold of you and also how to get to your blog. And so your URL is sevenhillscommunications.com. And listeners, ff you go there, the very first place you should go is the blog. Especially if you are doing DIY PR and marketing. Her blog has so many great articles that will help you.
Dolph Goldenburg (30:54):
And we’ll also share the link to the blog I mentioned in the intro, How to Prepare for a Media Interview. I already mentioned that my media training was learned the hard way and that I made a lot of mistakes. So please, please don’t learn this the hard way. Go to Kristen’s blog at sevenhillscommunications.com. While there, you should also click on the contact link because Kristen has made an incredible offer. She is going to give a 30 minute strategy conversation to any listener that reaches out. Even if you are not at a point where you are ready to hire a communications or PR professional. So make sure you reach out. This is a great opportunity to run some ideas by a pro who has been on both sides of the fence, someone who pitches and someone who’s received those pitches. Hey, Kristen, thank you so much for coming on to
Kristen Elworthy (32:17):
Thank you so much. This has been so much fun and a great way to start the day. I’ve had so much fun talking about all this. It’s just like one of those things that you nerd out to when you do this. I really appreciate all the insightful questions. It’s been awesome. Thank you.
Dolph Goldenburg (32:30):
Hey Kristin, thank you. And listeners, if you were so busy researching the niche publications that you need to be pitching to that you missed those URLS, don’t worry about it. Just head over to our show notes at successfulnonprofits.com and you know that we are going to have all those links there for you. Also, just want to remind you, don’t forget that starting in January, we’ve got a coaching group for executive directors. It’s Coaching for Tough Times. If you are looking at your 2021 budget and scratching your head and going, “Oh, how are we going to make all this work and keep our staff happy and our board feeling good and serve everyone who we say we’re supposed to be serving?” You should absolutely register for our coaching for tough times. It’s multiple weeks, curriculum-based. Make sure you check it out at successfulnonprofits.com.
Dolph Goldenburg (33:38):
Couple more things I want to share with you. I recently discovered through my good friend and podcast guest, Abra Annes, that if you have an iPhone, you can just say, “Hey Siri, subscribe to the Successful Nonprofits® Podcast.” I don’t have an iPhone. So I tried it on Droid with, “Okay, Google.” And that works too! So if you’re not yet subscribed, just say, “Hey Siri” or “Hey Google” or “Hey Alexa, subscribe to the Successful Nonprofits® Podcast.” It could not be easier. Finally, if you liked this episode and you got a lot from it, I would suggest that you check out Episode 55: Grow Your Organization’s Social Media with Shantel Khleif . I would also recommend that you check out Episode 88: Media Relations with Antoinette Ker . So if you got a lot out of this conversation with Kristen, go back a couple years and check out these episodes. That, listeners, is our show for this week. I hope you have gained some insight to help your non-profit thrive in a competitive environment.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
I am not an accountant or attorney and neither I nor the Goldenburg Group provide tax legal or accounting advice. This material has been provided for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for tax, legal or accounting advice. Always consult a qualified, licensed professional about such matters.
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