If you’re among the 64% of workers actively looking for a new job or considering career advancement, today’s episode is for you.
Kris Holmes is a pro at helping others not just successfully find a new job, but a new job that fits their strengths and career goals. She joins us today to discuss key tips for finding and landing your next dream job. So listen in for ideas about preparing for your interview, negotiating your compensation, and more!
Listen to the Episode Here!
Book: Ignite Your Career
Website: O’Connell Group
(05:21) Building your career toolbox
(07:57) The importance of mentoring & networking
(11:20) Finding a great place to work
(13:10) A brief aside about the power of LinkedIn & networking
(17:32) Preparing for a great interview
(24:38) Negotiating for your next job
Dolph Goldenburg (0s):
Welcome to the Successful Nonprofits® Podcast. I’m your host, Dolph Goldenburg. You’re in for a treat today. Kris Holmes is going to be speaking with us about one of her passions and her book, Ignite Your Career!: Strategies and Tactics to Unleash Your Potential. Before we jump right in with Kris, I know organizations are starting to look at what happens post-pandemic. Hopefully, we’re starting to see the end not that far in the future. Part of what that means for organizations is strategic planning.
Dolph Goldenburg (41s):
If you are looking for strategic planning that is participatory, inclusive, and gets data and feedback from lots of stakeholders and sources, make sure you check out how we do our strategic planning at successfulnonprofits.com. If you might be interested in launching a strategic planning project in mid to late 2021, now would be a good time to reach out. Listeners, it is my pleasure to introduce you to Kris Holmes. She can help you unleash your full potential and ignite your career in ways that you never thought it could.
Dolph Goldenburg (1m 25s):
She has over 25 years of executive recruiting experience with the O’Connell Group. In those 25 years, she has placed over 1,000 executives and counseled over 20,000 executives. There’s kind of this 10,000 hour rule that if you’ve done something for 10,000 hours, you’re probably a pro at it. I promise you, she has spent way more than 10,000 hours on this. So listeners, I am so very excited to bring Kris onto the podcast. Hey Kris, welcome.
Kris Holmes (2m 4s):
Dolph. Thanks so much. I am thrilled to be here.
Dolph Goldenburg (2m 8s):
As someone who helps other people find their passion and ignite their career, how did you find your own career passion and a job you love?
Kris Holmes (2m 21s):
Dolph, I’ll tell you I kind of fell into it. I wasn’t really sure what I wanted to do coming out of college. I fell into a career in retail and was really good in my first job, but didn’t feel comfortable in my second one and went to human resources and told them I’m not so sure I want to do this. Luckily they said, “We have a position open here” and they shifted me into human resources. I loved that role. Subsequently, my best friend from college had gone straight to business school at Northwestern. I watched what she was doing. She was getting into brand marketing and I was getting really excited about that.
Kris Holmes (3m 6s):
I applied to Kellogg Business School. Somehow I got in and I fell in love with marketing. I spent 10 years in brand marketing and loved it and was great at certain parts of the role. Other parts were really a struggle for me. I got through, but they were a grind and it was really hard work. Fast forward 10 years and four companies, my company got sold. I continued to interview for other marketing roles. I called my very favorite recruiter and said, “Hey, we’re in St. Louis. We don’t want to move. We want to raise our kids here, get me a job in St. Louis.”
Kris Holmes (3m 48s):
He said, “Come work for me.” That really took me back. I thought about what I loved about my current role. Every single favorite part involved the people. I talked to mentors who said, “I think you’d be really good at it. Go try it for a year.” I decided to do that. From day one, recruiting felt like breathing. It was easy and I almost felt guilty because I was really good at it. I was able to make quite good money, but it didn’t feel like it was working. It felt like it was fun and it was enjoyable. It was so satisfying because I was able to help people achieve their goals.
Dolph Goldenburg (4m 41s):
I think you kind of hit the nail on the head there. You said, “It doesn’t feel like working.” Ultimately, I think that’s what we’re all kind of looking for out of our jobs.
Kris Holmes (4m 51s):
I agree. I think when you find a role that aligns with your strengths, that’s what happens.
Dolph Goldenburg (4m 58s):
The other thing that I think was so strategic was the concept: “Let me go do this for a year and see if I like it.” So many of us are afraid to take on a new role and think of it this way.
Kris Holmes (5m 21s):
Talking to mentors gave me some confidence to try it. They told me and I’ve also learned for myself, that if you go try it for a year, you’ll build some skills that you can use in the future. If it works out, great, you keep going. But if it doesn’t work out, those skills will help you be more successful. That gave me confidence to say, “Alright, let’s go give this a try, no harm, no foul.”
Dolph Goldenburg (5m 53s):
I always thought of myself as going from job to job or engagement to engagement. Oftentimes I’m presented with new challenges and I have to develop new skills. I think of those as these tools to go in my toolbox. I carry that toolbox with me wherever I go. The toolbox gets bigger and bigger because I’m taking on new challenges.
Kris Holmes (6m 21s):
If you read my book (because that is literally chapter two), we’re talking about learn, do leverage. That’s what you’re doing in the learning phase. Your goal is to fill your toolbox. My philosophy in the learning phase is go to the best company you can or work for the smartest people who have been trained at top quality companies. So you can fill that toolbox with really high quality tools. That’s how you build a great foundation.
Dolph Goldenburg (6m 51s):
Part of the other key to working for the best company or organization that you can is it also raises the bar for what success looks like. At a mediocre organization, you can kind of call it in and still be thought of as successful. But if you’re working for really smart people, you’ve got to take it to the next level, or you’re not really seen as successful.
Kris Holmes (7m 19s):
I agree completely. If you learn best practices early on in your career, down the road, you can go to that company that doesn’t have that expertise and you can be a big fish in a small pond. You can be the one who’s bringing that transformation to that organization and really building that expertise.
Dolph Goldenburg (7m 43s):
Absolutely. Even as you go to a different organization where you might be a big fish in a small pond, that really smart person or people you were working with or for are still your mentors.
Kris Holmes (7m 57s):
Absolutely. In my book, I have a whole chapter that talks about networking and how critical it is. And really networking for life and how important it is to build mentors throughout your career. It’s important to reach out, but also reaching down to other people and helping them along and how rewarding and enriching it is.
Dolph Goldenburg (8m 25s):
I am in full alignment with you about that. It’s both rewarding and enriching. In my own professional life, it would probably take me two hands to count the number of people that I think of as mentors in different areas. These people are probably 10 to 20 years ahead of me in their career, which in some cases means they’re now retired. If I find myself in New York for work, I call one of them up and say, “Hey, I’m in town next week. Can we have coffee?” And the act of having coffee and being able to share with the person what I’m doing and get their feedback, honestly, it’s coaching I couldn’t pay for.
Kris Holmes (9m 10s):
Oh, I agree. Being able to reach out to these folks who had been mentors of mine throughout my career and that I had networked with for the last 25 years as I wrote this book was so powerful because I was able to get people like Bob Eckert (who I had worked with at Kraft and was my VP and President, then became CEO of Mattel) to write a recommendation for my book. I was also able to get a gentleman who had been the head of the books and Kindle for Amazon involved.
Kris Holmes (9m 55s):
It’s because of networking and the relationships that they were willing to do that for me. So I am a huge believer. The other thing that networking has done personally for me is brought in so much business for me because of staying in touch. They know about the O’Connell Group, where I work and how I operate, and we’ve done work for them. They recommend us time and time again and bring in new business. So it’s beneficial. It’s also rewarding in that it builds friendships across the country.
Dolph Goldenburg (10m 28s):
Absolutely. I know in my own professional life, I have found networking to absolutely be a two-way street. I cannot tell you how many times I have done someone a favor who’s kind of tangential in my network. The next thing I know they’re telling three prospective clients about me. Now, I didn’t do it so they would tell three prospective clients about me. It sort of happens organically.
Kris Holmes (10m 56s):
No, I agree. It’s pretty amazing when you do something like that and you’re giving back and you want to help because people have helped you. Word gets out that you’re a good person and you’re willing to share your knowledge and expertise and that you really know your stuff.
Dolph Goldenburg (11m 20s):
You’ve talked a little bit about the importance of working for a great organization and really smart people. As a candidate, how do you make sure the organization, and frankly, the boss and colleagues, are great?
Kris Holmes (11m 36s):
I think it’s a great question. I believe there are three stages of your career. There’s learn, do, and leverage. And where it’s most critical is in the learning phase. The way you’re going to do that is you’ve got to do research the industry. You may have to work with a career center. You may have to network with people who you’ve come across, either via LinkedIn or that you have met through school or other ways.
Kris Holmes (12m 19s):
And it is not easy. You’ve got to do homework. Especially as we are coming out of this pandemic, where there may not be as many jobs as there were. You have to do more legwork, but the jobs are out there. The beauty of LinkedIn is you can also see where they have worked in the past. So you may go to a smaller company, but be working for somebody who had their foundation at a PNG or a Clorox or a Johnson & Johnson or a Pfizer – one of the top companies. You want to be mindful of where they got their training, because that’s what they’re going to share with you. So you have to do the legwork and do the homework and not rely on somebody else to do it for you.
Dolph Goldenburg (13m 10s):
I’ve got to reflect for a second that you also talked about that importance of LinkedIn. While this is a little bit tangential, LinkedIn is so incredible. 30 years ago almost everyone had one of those paper Rolodexes that literally rolled around on their desk and they would get old and they would get outdated. LinkedIn literally updates your LinkedIn Rolodex for you.
Kris Holmes (13m 41s):
Absolutely. I think people don’t consider their high school, college, or grad school. They are a goldmine in terms of resources. They have these alumni networks and oftentimes they have them by location and industry. And they list emails and telephone numbers. You want to make sure you also tap into those folks because you have something in common with every single one of those folks. It’s likely that they will be very open to hearing from you and helping you. So don’t forget about them as well.
Dolph Goldenburg (14m 23s):
One of the tricks that I’ve used with my own alma mater, Georgia State University, is when I’ve said to them, “I know you’re working on building your major donor base. I am happy to connect you with people that were at Georgia State at the same time I was and let them know that I’m a donor. I would love to have them get a tour of the new building or come to this special lecture.” That reach out is so important and so critical for a number of reasons. I’m giving value back to my alma mater and people that I went to school with are seeing that as well.
Kris Holmes (15m 2s):
Absolutely. I think that’s a great thing. I’ll tell you, I went to Tufts for undergrad and I had a student reach out to me a month or two ago via LinkedIn. She sent me a message and it was really powerful. She said, “I’m very interested in marketing. I love your background. I love that you were in marketing and shifted to recruiting in marketing. I’d love to hear your journey and love to get advice from you. Would you be willing to talk?” And then she was really respectful. She said, “I’m confident you’re crazy busy. I understand if you don’t have time to talk, but I would be so appreciative if you would.” Dolph, I got back to her within 30 seconds saying, “How could I not respond to you? This is a very powerful message and kudos to you for wonderful networking. Let’s chat.”
Dolph Goldenburg (16m 6s):
That is so cool. One of the best experiences I’ve had as an alum at Georgia State was when the college that I graduated from wanted to do mock interviews for graduate students and undergrad seniors who were about to graduate. They had some of us who are alum sit down and do a mock interview for a morning with three or four people. First of all, I was blown away. These are such smart, intelligent, articulate young people with such bright futures. And it was good for my alma mater because it was a great way to cultivate me and really be impressed at the school I graduated from, but it was also a meaningful way to contribute.
Kris Holmes (16m 58s):
Absolutely. I think that’s great. The kids that I’m most impressed with are the ones who then link into me and message me and thank me. Then ask if they can stay in touch with me and keep me apprised of their career journey. Those are the ones who got what I was saying and followed through and are going to be very successful.
Dolph Goldenburg (17m 32s):
Let’s talk about real interviews. What are some things that people can do to prepare to ensure they have a really strong interview?
Kris Holmes (17m 47s):
If you’re lucky enough to get an interview, not doing your homework is like going to Harvard and leaving before you take your last final. It’s really foolish. I am a huge believer in doing homework and prep before you have your interview. I read something that one of our candidates wrote about. Before every interview, he does 10 hours of work. Now, I think that’s a little bit excessive.
Kris Holmes (18m 31s):
You want to do homework on yourself and your company. The homework on yourself is your experience. You want to be able to articulate who you are and how you make a difference. If somebody says to you, “What are your strengths? What are your accomplishments?” You need to be able to share your top two – too many will go in one ear and out the other. And then give an example of how they have allowed you to deliver success. You tell quick stories that visualize the success.
Kris Holmes (19m 15s):
There’s some chemical reaction that allows people to both remember it and believe it. What I tell my candidates to do is to come up with strengths and write a strength at the top of each index card. Think of an example of where that strength allowed you to achieve your goal and write it out in what I call ’the STAR examples’. So it’s Situation – what’s going on? Thinking – that light bulb or the aha moment. That takes you to the Action.
Kris Holmes (19m 59s):
And then the Result. These stories should be one to two minutes in length. I’ll give you a really quick, tight example that I used to share. When I was at Kraft introducing a new product to market, we had to get it out very fast because a competitor was coming to market. In the meetings, we had an R&D guy who was throwing up obstacles all over the place and really getting in the way of our success. The thinking I did was trying to figure out what was behind his obstacles. I couldn’t figure out why he didn’t want us to be successful and why he wasn’t on board.
Kris Holmes (20m 40s):
I talked to a couple people who had worked with him in the past, and they shared with me that he was really so over what he called ‘brand babies’. People like me coming in and telling him what to do without acknowledging his 30 years of experience. The light bulb that went off that I needed to really build a relationship and ask for his help and acknowledge his experience. So I called him and said, “Will you meet me for coffee?” And I sat down with him and I said, “Look, I can’t do this without you. You’ve been doing this for a long time. Can you help me figure out how to do this? You’re the one in the know, can you help us navigate this?” We sat down for two hours and talked through everything. The result was he went from being my adversary to my biggest advocate my entire time at Kraft. So that’s what I tell everybody to do. So I tell them to write out all the examples and then to talk them out loud so that they know exactly what they want to say. So they’ve got to become the expert in explaining their strengths.
Kris Holmes (22m 3s):
Then they do the exact same thing with their achievements. Because if they don’t know themselves inside and out, and can’t articulate who they are and how they make a difference, they’re never going to be able to share that and to sell themselves to the client. That’s the first thing. The other thing they’ve got to do is homework on the client. They’ve got to go to their website. They’ve got to do research on the competitors. They’ve got to be able to demonstrate they’re sincerely interested in the client, in the company, and in the job because if they don’t, it could cost them the job.
Dolph Goldenburg (22m 39s):
Kris, there’s one pro tip I want to share. When you’re doing your research on a prospective nonprofit employer, every nonprofit’s tax form is public information. That’s the IRS form 990. It’s available at ProPublica. It’s available at GuideStar for free. I’ve always said to folks whether you’re applying to be a case manager or the executive director, you really want to pull that 990 and you want to dive into a little bit. Is it having surpluses from year to year, or is it having deficits from year to year? Is it having executive turnover? Because normally your chief executive is the person who often signs your 990.
Dolph Goldenburg (23m 23s):
Is it a different person every year? And this will also help you tailor the stories that you tell and the questions that you ask. If you know an organization for two of the last three years is at a deficit, you could tell a story about ways you’re responsible for fundraising or about ways you helped smooth over and bring in additional revenue or cut expenses. If you’re a program manager, if you can tell that this organization has had some real leadership transitions, you can talk about ways that you’ve worked successfully in environments that have high turnover in leadership and what you did to support leadership and to help leadership be successful.
Kris Holmes (24m 14s):
I think that’s great. The other thing that I would tell people to do is look and see if they know people who either work at the company or have worked at the company to get the inside perspective. The more homework you can do, the more it demonstrates your true interest. That’s really important, especially today in such a competitive job market.
Dolph Goldenburg (24m 38s):
Totally. Now let’s fast forward. Let’s say, someone’s got a job offer on the table. The prospective employer said, “We want to hire you.” How does that applicant or that candidate negotiate well for themselves?
Kris Holmes (24m 55s):
Yeah, that’s a great question. It’s really uncomfortable for a lot of people. What you want to do is receive the offer and be very excited about it. Ask them to send you all the information – benefits, if you’re relocating then relocation information. Then ask to have conversations with hiring managers. If you want to talk to peers to understand more about the culture, ask all those questions. Then ask yourself, “Do I want to work here?”
Kris Holmes (25m 38s):
I never let anybody negotiate until we know they want to be there. Then think about what are the few things you want to negotiate? I don’t think you ever want to have a laundry list. So come up with a couple of things and then you want to build rationale as to why you’re asking for those things. So it might be, “Is there anything you can do on a compensation package?” And the rationale might be, “While I appreciate what you’ve done, I’m due for a raise here, which makes this a lateral offer. Is there anything you can do in terms of increasing the base?” You might say, “Is there anything you could do on vacation? Right now I have four weeks and you guys are offering three weeks.” Give them the background in the rationale, not that you’re greedy, but that you have a really good, solid business case for them. The goal when you negotiate is to put your request on the table and then give them the rationale.
Kris Holmes (27m 0s):
Don’t tell them how to do it. Then put you both on the same side of the table, trying to achieve the goal. That way you’re working together. You both are trying to achieve the goal because they want you to say “yes”, and you want to say, “yes.” It increases the likelihood of it working out. It really increases the positive momentum and the good will. The worst thing you can do is negotiate and ask for something and then say “no,” because that really leaves a bad taste in the mouth. The world is way too small. So that’s how we recommend you negotiate.
Dolph Goldenburg (27m 39s):
So I’ve got a couple of tactical questions for you. If someone wants to negotiate on compensation, do you recommend that the candidate should not name an amount? Or should they say, “If you could get this $5,000 more or $10,000 more?”
Kris Holmes (28m 4s):
So you can say, “Ideally, if you could get here, that would be phenomenal.” But the reality is Dolph, we don’t know what levers they can pull. We don’t know what sort of internal constraints they have. They may not have enough money in the base that they can increase the base, but they may be able to give you a sizable sign-on bonus. That’s why you don’t want to back them into a corner. You can say, “Ideally if you could get to here, that would be best. But if you can’t, I would appreciate a sign-on or something else.” So you can do it, but you also want to give them some flexibility.
Dolph Goldenburg (28m 47s):
I like that approach a lot. I want to share with you one of the other ways that I’ve seen prospective employees negotiate well for themselves is they talk about what they’re going to be leaving on the table. A few years ago, I was a part of a group that was helping bring in a high level person at a nonprofit. The candidate essentially said, “I’m vesting in the retirement plan next year. That means I’m leaving all of the employer match on the table. I need a signing bonus equivalent to that.” We heard that and that seemed really fair.
Kris Holmes (29m 24s):
And I think that’s absolutely fair. That’s something else you can negotiate. There’s real value there.
Dolph Goldenburg (29m 45s):
The other thing you mentioned is negotiating and then not accepting the job. This has only happened to me a few times as an executive director or a hiring manager, but that’s when we negotiated in good faith with a candidate, they accepted the job, then two days later they came back with some reason about why they can’t take the job.
Kris Holmes (30m 9s):
That is not a good thing to do. You burn so many bridges doing that. You’re much better off, if you have something else in the mix, being upfront and saying, “Could I have another day or two? I have another opportunity that’s come up. I would really like to explore that one, too. If I say yes to you, I want to be a thousand percent committed. if you can give me the weekend, I will get back to you with an answer. If I say, yes, then I am absolutely coming and joining your organization.” I bet you would have felt a whole bunch better about that than the person saying “Yes” on a Friday and then turning around on a Monday or Tuesday and saying, “No.”
Dolph Goldenburg (30m 59s):
Everyone on that particular organization’s senior leadership team kind of felt used and assumed this person took an offer, accepted it, and then used it to get something better either with their current employer or some other employer.
Kris Holmes (31m 19s):
Absolutely. I think that’s a great point. I am not a believer in counter offers with your current company. I have truly never seen them work. If somebody wants more money from their current company or a promotion, I’m a big believer in putting a business case together with your current company and saying, “I would like to talk about getting a raise or talk about when I’m going to be promoted. Here’s the rationale. Let me walk you through it. Let’s talk about when this might happen.” They might say, “You know what, you’ve put a great case and within three months we’ll make this happen.”
Kris Holmes (32m 6s):
Or they might say, “You know what? We’re not in the same place and this isn’t going to happen for you here.” You’ll know it. But when we have seen people accept counter offers, it never works out because typically the reason they were looking to begin with hasn’t gone away. They might’ve gotten a little bit more money and they’re sticking around their company. But I don’t know anybody who looks at their paycheck every day and says, “This is the reason I’m here.” It goes away really fast in terms of happiness. It’s what you do day in and day out.
Kris Holmes (32m 48s):
I always tell people that when they go in to resign, if their company starts making noise about making a counteroffer, to stop them and say, “Hey, I respect you far too much. I don’t want you to waste your time putting together a counteroffer. This is the right move for me, professionally and personally. I want to stay on really good terms with you. So please do not put any effort into a counteroffer. Let’s stay in touch for the long term.”
Dolph Goldenburg (33m 17s):
Amen. I have to share with you as a chief executive, if you’ve reached the point that you are ready to resign, you’ve already emotionally left this job. So, even if I came up with more money, chances are in six months’ time or eight months’ time, you’re going to leave. Now, one of the things that I have on occasion done as an executive director is say, “Can we give you a bonus as you leave so that instead of giving us a month’s notice you give us two months’ notice? So we can hire the person who’s going to replace you. Then you can train that person.” And I’ve seen that work effectively a couple of times when their future employer is willing to wait that long.
Kris Holmes (34m 3s):
That’s a different story. Especially if the future employers are willing to say, “Okay, we can wait because the incumbent’s still here or whatever.” I could see that being a win-win.
Dolph Goldenburg (34m 16s):
Yeah, absolutely. Kris, I want to make sure we get to the off-the-map question. We’re having a great conversation. I know our listeners would love to continue to get negotiation tips and interview tips from you today. But, I understand that you are named after a very famous person. I’m hoping you can tell us a little bit about that.
Kris Holmes (34m 43s):
Yeah, it’s a very interesting story. My understanding is I was originally going be named Jane and two weeks before my parents’ cousin had a daughter and named her Jane and that really irritated them. So they didn’t know what to do. It was around the time that Miracle on 34th Street came out and they really liked that movie.
Kris Holmes (35m 23s):
And they liked the main character, Kris Kringle, and they decided, “Okay, boy or girl, we’re gonna name this kid, Kris.” So that’s how a nice Jewish girl got named after Santa Claus.
Dolph Goldenburg (35m 40s):
Miracle on 34th Street is one of my favorite movies. I’m also not really Christian, but it is. Second, I have to ask, do you ever fill out the birth date section of any form and say, “As old as my tongue and a little bit older than my teeth?”
Kris Holmes (36m 1s):
Dolph Goldenburg (36m 5s):
And listeners, in case you don’t know, Kris Kringle in the movie Miracle on 34th Street filled out an employment application and that’s what he put down for his birthdate.
Kris Holmes (36m 20s):
It’s a great movie, even the remake is pretty darn cute.
Dolph Goldenburg (36m 48s):
Until this year, I typically was on the road a lot. The last couple of weeks of the year, when I was on a plane, that’s always what I pulled up on my laptop. Normally I would work and instead I’d be like, “I’m going to watch Miracle on 34th Street on my way home tonight.” Kris, thank you so much for joining us today. Listeners, I want to make sure that you know how to reach out to Kris. First of all, her website is IgniteYourCareerBook.com. At that website, you can not only get a link to purchase her book at Amazon, but you can also find out more about help that you can get on your own career journey. Think about resumes, interview prep, negotiation, coaching. If those are any of the things that you think you might benefit from, make sure you check out IgniteYourCareerBook.com. As a special offer for our listeners, she is offering 10% off the services at her site with a coupon code ‘successfulnonprofit10’ Finally, if you are in the marketing or marketing research world, also check out oconnellgroup.com.
Dolph Goldenburg (38m 19s):
Hey Kris, thank you so much for joining us today.
Kris Holmes (38m 22s):
It has been wonderful chatting with you
Dolph Goldenburg (38m 25s):
Listeners, if you’re now in April, and you’re starting to see your way out of the fog of pandemic and recession and you’re thinking, “Yes, as we think about closing out 2021, we need to have a great strategic plan to launch into 2022.” Well dear listeners, a good planning process is going to take you six, maybe even eight months.
Dolph Goldenburg (39m 14s):
So reach out now and see if we can fit you into our schedule for strategic planning. Finally, if you liked this episode, there are two that I think you will especially enjoy. The first is Episode 149: Job interview questions and answers with Evan Piekara. The second is Episode 124: Strategies to Get the Director-Level Job with Kevin Chase. That, listeners, is our show for this week. I hope that you have gained some insight to help your nonprofit thrive in a competitive environment.
Dolph Goldenburg (39m 55s):
And as always, I got to give you the disclaimer. I’m not an accountant nor an attorney, and neither I nor the Goldenburg Group provide tax, legal, or accounting advice. This podcast is meant for informational purposes only, and is not designed to be relied on for tax, legal, or accounting advice. If you find yourself in need of that, please reach out to a qualified, licensed professional.
** We have edited this transcript because how you listen is not how you read. If you have a problem with this, remember you got this for free!