19% of adults claim their mental health worsened in 2020. In fact, 78% said the pandemic was a key source of stress and 60% said other issues, like the election and racism, were overwhelming.

We celebrate our 200th episode and acknowledge Stress Awareness Month with Beth Kanter and an exploration of self-care. Join Dolph and Beth as they explore the science behind common stress points and share their favorite ideas for self-care. So whether you decide to walk, read, buy a new fountain pen, or start your own succulent garden, kick off your self-care journey with today’s episode!

Listen to the Episode Here!

Links

Website: Beth Kanter’s Site

Website: AI4Giving

Podcast: Ep 29: Impact Without Burnout with Beth Kanter

Podcast: Ep 152: Using “Scrum” to Avoid Burnout with Diane Leonard

Podcast: Ep 182: Life After Burnout with Bethany Planton and Trish Bachman

Timestamps

(03:07) Repurposing your commute

(07:29) How to create a new habit

(08:36) Ideas for your fake-commute

(14:02) The joys of fountain pens

(18:05) Why working from home is so stressful

(21:37) How to support your staff

Transcript

Dolph Goldenburg (1s):

Welcome to the Successful Nonprofits® Podcast. I’m your host, Dolph Goldenburg. Listeners, this is such a special episode. If all of the stars align, this will be our 200th episode. And I know I’ve shared this before on the podcast, but I am so grateful for this podcasting journey and for every single person, whether you download once a year or you download every week. 

Dolph Goldenburg (41s):

There’ve been times that I’ve made some really big mistakes with the podcast. I figured out what I needed to do differently, forgave myself, and moved it forward. And I certainly hope in a couple of years, I’m saying to you that it’s the 300th episode. It’s appropriate for our 200th episode that we bring back one of our rockstar guests, Beth Kanter, who was on episode 29 of the podcast, back when the audio quality was so bad, you can’t even get that on your RSS feed anymore.

Dolph Goldenburg (1m 21s):

You can only get that episode on the website. You probably already know Beth Kanter. She is someone in the nonprofit world who requires absolutely no introduction. But you know what? I’m going to go ahead and tell you about Beth anyway. Beth is without a doubt, one of the gurus of the nonprofit sector around self-care. If you tuned into her first episode, you probably heard about her burnout story and how she learned about the importance of self-care. And ever since then, she has been an evangelist to the nonprofit world, reminding us to take care of ourselves in such a way that we have something left over for not just our organizations, and not just our family, but for us.

Dolph Goldenburg (2m 17s):

Over the course of the last many years, Beth has done phenomenal work – keynote speaking engagements, workshops, trainings, et cetera. And you may know her for her book, The Happy, Healthy Nonprofit: Strategies for Impact Without Burnout. Today we’re going to have this conversation with Beth because self-care never goes out of style. Hey Beth, welcome back to the podcast. I’m thrilled to have you on episode 200.

Beth Kanter (2m 57s):

I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Dolph Goldenburg (3m 1s):

I understand that you were recently featured in a Wall Street Journal article.

Beth Kanter (3m 7s):

Yes. Earlier this week, there was an article about the fake commute, and I’ve been a real advocate of that since the pandemic. The fake commute is taking over your commuting time. If you’re used to commuting, then instead you go outside for a walk or something, and what that does is it creates a buffer or a boundary between your work life at home and your life at home. That buffer time is one of the things that we’ve lost by having to work from home and it makes it challenging from a work-life balance perspective. The weekdays feel like weekends and the mornings melt into the afternoons and it becomes really easy for us to overwork.

Beth Kanter (3m 53s):

And then of course that leads to stress and can lead to burnout. Pretty early on in the pandemic, I pulled out every single self-care tool that I wrote about in my book and started practicing it myself. Every morning I go out and I take about a half hour, 45 minute walk around the neighborhood. I have different routes. I’m in California. When I first started, it was really wonderful because it was spring here and the flowers were blooming and I got to practice a little mindfulness. At one point it felt like I was on vacation because I was observing and discovering things that I hadn’t seen before.

Beth Kanter (4m 33s):

And that opened me up to new interests. It just was a huge boost to my mental health and my work-life balance, but also my physical health because walking is terrific medicine. Right before the pandemic, I had gone in for my annual physical and my cholesterol had creeped back up because I wasn’t as active as I should be. My doctor said. “Before I give you any medicines, get back to your walking routine.” And I did. And just a few weeks ago, I tested back in the normal range. I highly recommend that, if you’re able, take a walk or do other things. But movement is just something that you can do to put a boundary around your work.

Dolph Goldenburg (5m 18s):

I love that. When the weather was nice, we at our household were doing a really good job of going for a walk every day after work. We live in the Atlanta area, which it’s not horrible, but today it’s in the 30s. And by the way, I know this is airing in April, but we’re recording in January. Consequently, there are stretches of days when I don’t even leave my apartment now. Whereas, a year ago, pre-pandemic, I would normally be on a plane two or three times a week.

Dolph Goldenburg (6m 3s):

I was out and about and active and doing things. And now winter has come. The days are short. Literally, I get up, I shower, I have some breakfast, I go to work, work ends, I make dinner and boom, the day’s over. I love this idea of a fake commute.

Beth Kanter (6m 22s):

As a person who was born on the East coast and lived up in New England for many years, I’m only a recent California transplant. We do get some “cold” weather in the 40s, that’s cold here. But it does rain. When it rains, I put my raincoat on. And I would encourage you to go take that walk. Even if it’s cold, get a warm coat. It’s refreshing.

Dolph Goldenburg (6m 54s):

Oh no, I’m right there with you. And I think I may have shared with you before that when I lived in Philadelphia, I walked to work almost every day and it can get down to the teens for weeks in Philly. 

Beth Kanter (7m 7s):

You know, I grew up in the Philly area.

Dolph Goldenburg (7m 9s):

Yeah. It gets cold in November and doesn’t really get warm until late April.  Obviously I’m okay with walking in the cold. I just need to start thinking of that as part of my routine and saying, “Oh yeah. This is time for me to have a fake commute. Let me go walk to work.”

Beth Kanter (7m 29s):

That’s really the first step – to say, “Okay, I’m going to make a commitment. I’m going to shift something” because really self-care is about establishing some new habits that build your personal resilience. I interviewed habit-change experts like BJ Fogg, who is right here in California. The reason we don’t do it is because it’s just a big change. The way that you can game yourself is to use the tiny habits framework. You have to make your new habit tiny instead of walking 10 miles, just start with a walk around the block. That’s tiny. 

Beth Kanter (8m 10s):

Then you have to anchor it to existing habits, something that you’re doing every day. When I wake up, after I brush my teeth and after I commute down the hall and have my coffee, then I’m going to get up and go out for a walk. And then it’s just training that cycle. When you do it, you’re celebrating and saying, “Yay me!” Start small, anchor it to some existing behavior and then celebrate the fact that you’ve done it. Over time you’ll create that habit and then you can start to build on it.

Dolph Goldenburg (8m 36s):

I’m also lucky in that I love walking. There’s just something for me about moving myself in a city or a place I love. Walking is not something that I really have to think hard to be like, “Oh yeah, I need to go do it.” I just need to set the time aside and say, “Yeah, okay. It’s time for my little 30 minute walk.”

Beth Kanter (8m 56s):

But we also have to be careful. There are people who can’t walk, but it doesn’t mean that they can’t also do a fake commute. In the Wall Street Journal article where I was profiled, they profiled some other people. And there was a person who was in a wheelchair. His old commute was to ride the bus, get to work, and read.  Now, at home, he gets up and he reads before he starts this workday. There’s lots of ways to fake commute. Walking is one tactic that you can use to use your commuting time. 

Dolph Goldenburg (9m 31s):

My husband teases me a little bit because he and I have very different morning rituals. He can shave, shower, get in a suit and be out the door in 25 minutes. Like from the moment he wakes up to the moment he leaves. I now need an hour and 45 minutes. It involves, first, literally sitting in the living room quietly while it’s still dark out and just remembering who I am and where I am in the world. Then it’s starting to stir and reading for a little bit and then I’ll write a little something or make a list or something like that. But it’s funny because I have some of those rituals where it’s hard for me to get ready. Back when I used to fly a lot, if I had a morning that had a 7:00 AM flight, it was a tough morning for me.

Beth Kanter (10m 27s):

Oh yeah. You’re also bringing up something else that’s also really important about self-care. It doesn’t have to be the exact same ritual, but it has to be something that you find calming, that you like to do. In addition to walking, I have my self-care repertoire. Some days I do have early meetings because I have clients in Europe. Here in California, I have to get up early and can’t necessarily do my walking commute. I have a repertoire of things I can do. I journal. I have a huge fountain pen collection and I’m a big fan of calligraphy so sometimes I practice.

Beth Kanter (11m 10s):

I also like to read. I avoid any electronics in the morning. The journal I’m doing is Gretchen Rubin’s Happiness Journal. It’s a five-year journal. Each page of the journal you just write one sentence. I’ve been doing this since when I was researching the book five years ago. I get up and do my one sentence journal and I can look back over the last five years and see what I was doing. Reflection is a way of being in the moment and reducing that stress.

Dolph Goldenburg (12m 9s):

So real quick, I adore Gretchen Rubin’s work and her book, The Happiness Project, was formative for me.

Beth Kanter (12m 23s):

And the habits book too. 

Dolph Goldenburg (12m 25s):

Yes. One of the things I loved in her habits book is how she talks about these personality types.

Beth Kanter (12m 39s):

Like your different archetypes about how you approach the world.

Dolph Goldenburg (12m 43s):

What it boils down to is: is your locus of control internal or external? Do you need external enforcement or internal enforcement and what works best for you? Oh my gosh. That was such a powerful book.

Beth Kanter (12m 58s):

We could go down the Gretchen Rubin rabbit hole, but what I really love about her writing is that she is very self-reflective. She obviously researched it really well. Then she would apply it to herself and write about what she learned about herself. And I just think this is so great. Each day in the diary has a quote. I take the quote, and with one of my fountain pens, I write out the quote in my long hand, just to practice my calligraphy or handwriting. I did read something about hand-eye coordination and how writing is a form of mindfulness that it activates a different part of the brain. And it helps with concentration. I’m not a meditator really, but this is my form of meditation.

Dolph Goldenburg (13m 53s):

I love that. That’s really incredible.

Beth Kanter (13m 57s):

Yeah. And it’s my excuse to buy fountain pens and more magic markers.

Dolph Goldenburg (14m 2s):

I only have one fountain pen. I have one really nice mechanical pencil and one really nice pen. I love writing with my fountain pen. And by the way, one of the things I should share with you, the off-the-map question today’s going to be about fountain pens. You know what? This is the 200th episode and we’re throwing out all the rules. Normally this question is the last question we ask, but we’re going to stick it in the middle. I was going to ask you your favorite type of fountain pen, like in terms of typology. Are you a piston fountain pen or a crescent fountain pen person? What fountain pen do you like to use?

Beth Kanter (14m 57s):

What you’re referring to is the filling mechanism of the pen. It’s how the pen sucks in the ink. That doesn’t matter to me so much. I tend to like the piston type of converters, the classic kind. I don’t like the squeezy ones. There’s particular brands of fountain pens that are fantastic. Two of my favorites are Parker Pens, because that’s what my dad used. He was a fountain pen addict too. I have a couple of his fountain pens. He has sadly passed away. And the other, Montegrappa, which is from North of Milan in Italy.

Beth Kanter (15m 39s):

They are exquisite pens. And I couldn’t even afford the higher end pens. They’re obscenely expensive, but they have a lower cost one, and I have one. It’s beautiful. It’s like a plastic acrylic. It’s called Ocean Ripple. It’s absolutely beautiful. And then I try to pair it with the perfect ocean blue ripple ink. See if you like fountain pens and you collect them, then you also collect ink.

Dolph Goldenburg (16m 7s):

Right. I have to share this with you because we’re going to go down this rabbit hole just a little bit further. For the longest time, I could not understand one of my nephews – who’s now in his twenties – because he was collecting really expensive tennis shoes. And I just remember being puzzled by this. One day, he was explaining to me how he felt about his tennis shoes and why they were important to him. I was like, “Aiden, I get this. This is like my pens.” And he said, “What do you mean?” And I said, “Well, this pair of tennis shoes that you just described to me and what you spent on it is what I spend on a pen or a mechanical pencil. I only have three or four of them.” 

Dolph Goldenburg (16m 49s):

And he’s like, “I’d never spend that money on a pen.” And I said to him, “This is why your tennis shoes are like my pen.” That’s funny because it is all about priorities. For some people a really, really expensive set of tennis shoes is the deal. And for other people it’s the pen.

Beth Kanter (17m 12s):

Right? Or the art supplies. I’m also an art supply addict and magic marker addict. And somehow the hunt for the materials is just part of the artistic process. To me it’s a very calming activity. I do something called Zentangles, which is meditative drawing. They’re squiggly and you can fill them in. It’s just very calming and enjoyable. And I’m especially grateful now that I have other work because I can’t do anything else at home. I’ve started a succulent garden. I noticed my neighbors succulent plants and then I thought, “Oh, I would like a succulent garden.” And we designed one and we built it.

Dolph Goldenburg (18m 5s):

One of the things you’ve alluded to, is that many of us in this sector are working from home every day. And I also get the sense that for some people there’s a good bit of fatigue around this. By the time this airs in April, people will have been working from home for 12 months, and not everyone loves working from home.

Beth Kanter (18m 35s):

Absolutely. I think the biggest issue is this ability to set boundaries between your work life and personal life. Part of it is that we can’t go anywhere. We can’t go out to a restaurant, at least in California. We can’t go to a museum. We can’t go out to a concert. We can’t just go to the grocery store. We can go out hiking and walking. So we do that. That’s one piece. I think another piece of it is that while you and I might be used to already working at home and working remotely, now that everybody’s remote it’s really hard because we’re used to making decisions in real time together and being able to see each other. Now, it’s a technology-mediated experience. We can only see each other, really our headshots. You can’t see what our hands are doing and there’s a temptation to multitask. That can be exhausting. There’s also something called ‘the self-complexity theory’.

Beth Kanter (20m 4s):

It’s the ability to have a different presence in different situations. I have my presence as a mother or as a wife or at home, but also in the workplace. But now it’s all blended and that can lead to negative self-talk. There’s also hyper-awareness of verbal cue overload. You and I are having this conversation and we can see each other’s faces. Staring into another person’s face is usually something that you reserve for an intimate relationship. When we have our team meetings, all of a sudden I’m staring into the eyes of strangers. There’s a lot that’s going on and causing stress and fatigue from both our work interactions and our life interactions through technology.

Beth Kanter (20m 53s):

That’s part of the reason why we’re feeling it – not to mention we’re not immune to what’s happening in the outside world. You and I are talking in January – before January 20th – and there’s a lot going on right now. The stress is really taking a toll. We’re going to see a mental health epidemic, and that’s something we need to be thinking about as nonprofits. Especially, as we contemplate at some point in 2021, going back into the workplace.

Dolph Goldenburg (21m 37s):

To pivot on that, how do we as organizations think about taking care of our team members who might be coming back really wounded?

Beth Kanter (21m 48s):

Absolutely. We have to de-stigmatize asking for health or mental health support. I just heard a conversation the other day with an executive director of an organization where he said he offered to pay the copays for his staff and encouraging them to get help if they need it. I saw some statistics about the number of people that are reporting depression and anxiety symptoms and the number of people being screened for these symptoms has dramatically increased.

Dolph Goldenburg (22m 25s):

Oftentimes you can get an EAP program through your payroll provider. Each employee is limited to maybe three or four Employee Assistance Program sessions per year. It’s also not a terribly expensive benefit to provide based on what they get. It’s typically a couple bucks per employee per pay period. Sometimes just having a person who you can talk to can help you figure out how to get the help you need. That can make all the difference and help de-stigmatize. That’s really important. 

Beth Kanter (23m 7s):

I think having the EAP program is really essential as a benefit. It’s not as good as seeing a professional, obviously. In certain cases, you may absolutely need to see a professional, but there are also resources that you can provide that can provide some help. There are free resources, even apps, that can help you learn how to meditate. This can reduce some of that anxiety and stress when it’s on the mild end of the continuum. There’s some point where there is a need for a professional intervention. The stigma of it can prevent someone from doing that and it could be a matter of life or death.

Dolph Goldenburg (23m 57s):

As leaders in the sector, it’s incumbent on us to lead by example when it comes to taking care of ourselves. I was talking to a chief executive toward the end of last year. I knew that this person had not taken any real vacation time all year. They’d taken a couple long weekends. I said, “Oh, do you have any plans to take time off around the holidays?” And the person said, “I really don’t.” And I said to the chief executive, “I’m concerned that maybe you’re not taking care of yourself.” And the chief executive explained that right now, while this is not always the case, his organizational culture is that people don’t take time off.

Dolph Goldenburg (24m 48s):

And I said to him, “Where do you think that’s coming from?” We were on a Zoom call. He looks at me and was like,  “Okay, that’s fair.” If you’re the chief executive and you’re not taking any time off, you shouldn’t be surprised if your organizational culture is that suddenly no one wants to take time off.

Beth Kanter (25m 6s):

Yeah. I mean the leader’s behavior is contagious – just as contagious as the coronavirus. If you’re a workaholic, then people assume that’s the norm. What we need to do is to create calming norms. We’re not just working at home. We’re working at home during a global pandemic, insurrection, and a racial equity movement.  We have to really shift and have kinder work norms. We need to be focusing not only on getting the work done, but on how people are feeling and what their energy level is. I think we have to have a new definition of productivity. 

Beth Kanter (25m 49s):

Here’s an example that’s more tactical. If you’re managing somebody, you have to value deliverables versus screen and seat time. If you’re doing one-on-one check-ins, you might need to do them more often. You might have to have some interim types of check-ins. Instead of just giving this big deadline for a project, maybe some interim check-ins and some coaching help. The other thing that’s really important is that your check-ins can’t be just about deliverables.

Beth Kanter (26m 32s):

Deliverables are important, but you also need to check in with the person. How are they doing? How is their energy level? What can I do as your manager to help and support you? There is some literature on employee morale and also mental health issues. There is suicide in the workplace, it’s something we don’t talk about, but it does happen. And they’re saying that the way to prevent that is to really ask the question in your one-on-ones, “how are you?”

Care about your people. I’m not saying this as some hippie crap. 

Dolph Goldenburg (27m 17s):

And sometimes not just taking “fine” for an answer. Fine means you’re probably not doing that good.

Beth Kanter (27m 25s):

It’s like teenagers, “How are you doing?”,  “Fine.”, “Oh, okay can you say a little bit more about that?” 

Dolph Goldenburg (27m 33s):

Right. Exactly. I’m not saying you’ve got to pull out a chart of frowny face to smiley face and say, “Okay, where does ‘fine’ fall on this chart?” But you probably want to get a sense.

Beth Kanter (27m 45s):

Exactly. Like is everything okay with your workload? Especially during the pandemic, because so many people are losing people too. I’ve been seeing it in my Facebook feed. I saw something right before we started this interview. It was a picture of a package that was arriving in the mail. It was a box. And on the outside it said, “human remains” and the story was from somebody who had lost their mother to COVID and that she couldn’t see her at the end.

Beth Kanter (28m 31s):

I mean, that’s a dramatic example, but I’m seeing friends posting about losing a parent to COVID or somebody in their family. I feel like, as a nation, we’re surrounded by grief and we’re also grieving the loss of our normal lives. I mean I traveled a lot. So did you. We’re grieving our loss of even getting on a  plane to go someplace.

Dolph Goldenburg (29m 11s):

Right. To some extent the sense, whether or not you traveled a lot, the sense of loss of freedom.

Beth Kanter (29m 17s):

Oh, absolutely. Definitely. I get these urges now and I just tell my husband, “Let’s go out to dinner” and then it’s like, “Oh, we can’t.”

Dolph Goldenburg (29m 26s):

Since I live in Georgia, I live in one of those states that has not required that restaurants close. My husband and I don’t go out to eat because we don’t want to endanger ourselves or other people. But, I hear you, there is a sense of loss, especially for those of us that are in states that have not been as cautious and taken the same prudent measures. We’re seeing other people that are like, “Oh, it’s not a big deal. I just go out.”

Beth Kanter (30m 3s):

At least in California, people are pretty compliant with the mask order. When you go out, anytime we leave the house, we put a mask on. I walk the dog and I put on a mask. We can’t do anything nonessential. There’s no indoor dining. If you were to see me, you would say, “Beth, your hair’s the longest it’s ever been.” You can’t get a haircut. Because the community spread is so high here in California, the advice is to order your groceries and have them delivered to help the people who can’t do that and to reduce crowds in the grocery stores. And it’s also really scary because the ICU beds available are at almost a zero. And you think about, God forbid, if we got sick. I mean, we’re not messing around.

Dolph Goldenburg (30m 53s):

I am really glad that is what you’re doing. And in Georgia, Frank and I have had some conversations with loved ones where we’ve had to say, “Yeah, we probably can’t see you right now because we want to be able to see you next year.”

Beth Kanter (31m 7s):

Yup, absolutely.

Dolph Goldenburg (31m 7s):

Which, frankly, is part of self-care. Sometimes we care for our community too, but that’s part of self-care to make the sacrifice now so that I can be here with the person next year and they can be with me. Beth, I am so grateful that you have joined us today to talk about self-care.

Beth Kanter (31m 25s):

I was going to say, we were going down the Debbie Downer path. And I think we should leave some people with some optimism, right?

Dolph Goldenburg (31m 31s):

That is fair. I will say there are things that I am very hopeful about despite how dark it is and despite how dreary it is. There are so many things that I’m hopeful about. I have not talked about this a lot on this podcast, but my husband and I were thinking about leaving the country, depending how things turned out in 2020. And we see some light, we see the possibility of having some reckonings and turning some corners . That doesn’t mean things get better immediately. Early on in the pandemic, I was the interim of a multi-million dollar organization.

Dolph Goldenburg (32m 20s):

One of the things that I would say all the time with team members is, “We’re going to get through this and we’re going to get through this together and we’re going to come out on the other side stronger.” And Beth, I really do believe that, as a sector, as communities, and as a nation, we’re going to come through this stronger. 

Beth Kanter (32m 40s):

I totally agree with you. And I think in order to maintain optimism I try to eat a rainbow every day. And I heard that phrase from my good friend, John Hyden, who sadly passed away a year ago. He was fighting cancer and the way he got through it is he said, “I eat a rainbow every day.” And I said, “What do you mean by that?” He goes, “It’s healthy foods. Rainbow vegetables.” But early on in the pandemic around here, families with kids would draw rainbows and encouragements on the sidewalk. And it would give them some hope. As long as we can consider that, move from the trauma, and adapt, then we’ve evolved.

Beth Kanter (33m 26s):

We can reinvent ourselves and we can reinvent our organizations and we can reinvent the way that we help people in our communities. We just have to stay optimistic. It’s not easy, but I think we can do it. 

Dolph Goldenburg (33m 43s):

We absolutely can. And Beth, I agree. That’s a much more positive way for us to close this out today.

Beth Kanter (33m 54s):

Absolutely.

Dolph Goldenburg (33m 56s):

Well listeners, some things don’t change. We might move the off-the-ap question for the 200th episode, but I always want to make sure that you know how to reach out to our guests. You can find Beth at bethkanter.org. She’s just redesigned and it looks amazing. Because sometimes how we make lemonade out of a pandemic is we go, “This is a good time, while I’m at home, to redesign the website.” If you’ve not been to her website in a year or two, make sure you check it out. Her blog is as good as it’s ever been and it looks beautiful.

Dolph Goldenburg (34m 39s):

You can also find out about her resources, trainings, workshops, et cetera. You can find out all of that at bethkanter.org. You can also get the Amazon link to the The Happy, Healthy Nonprofit: Strategies for Impact Without Burnout. Finally, there is one new project that we really were not able to touch on today, but I want to make sure that you know about this URL. Beth is a part of AI4Giving, which you can learn more about at ai4giving.org. 

Dolph Goldenburg (35m 19s):

We’ve had other guests on the podcast that have talked about how artificial intelligence is going to be dramatically changing fundraising as we know it. And that’s what this website is really about. It’s sponsored by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. And clearly they’re putting some energy behind this. Beth, thank you so much for being on today.

Beth Kanter (35m 41s):

Thank you so much for inviting me. And hang in there. We will get through this.

Dolph Goldenburg (35m 46s):

Exactly. We’ll be one of those motivational posters. The kittens hanging onto a limb over a cliff. And it says, ‘hang in there.’ Listeners, I just want to say thank you so much for joining me on this journey, wrapping up our 200th episode. When I first started this podcasting journey, I didn’t know where it was going to lead, but this podcast has unfolded in some really beautiful and amazing ways. I hope that you continue to get great value from the podcast and from the guests.

Dolph Goldenburg (36m 27s):

If you enjoyed this conversation with Beth Kanter, there are three episodes you should check out. The first one is Ep 29: Impact Without Burnout with Beth Kanter. You’re going to have to go to our website to listen to it because it’s not available on our RSS feed. The second one you should check out is Ep 152: Using “Scrum” to Avoid Burnout with Diane Leonard. The last one is Ep 182: Life After Burnout with Bethany Planton and Trish Bachman, That, dear listeners, is our show for this week. I hope that you have gained some insight to help you and your nonprofit thrive in a competitive environment.

Dolph Goldenburg (37m 7s):

And I always give you a quick disclaimer: I’m not an accountant nor an attorney and neither I nor the Goldenburg Group provide tax, legal, or accounting advice. This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not designed to provide tax, legal, or accounting advice. If you find yourself in need of that, you should get some referrals and find a licensed, qualified, and competent professional to help with those needs.